Does every hero have to have a typical tragic backstory?

[bluepencil]

Case in point, Taylor Hebert. I wonder, does anyone have any idea how many readers Wildbow lost just because his main character exists to suffer from her own stupidity and Wildbow's derp matter generator?

Apparently a lot less than the readers and fanfic writers he gained from it. The SB Worm infestation is still going strong.

A writer that isn't willing to gut-punch his characters is writing only comfort fiction, which is quite a fine genre on its own. There's room in literature for K-On! and Konosuba as much as Berserk! and Re:Zero.

A similar web novel is "The Wandering Inn". There are A LOT of shitty overpowered isekai genre stories. Hell, I write some of them. But a story that is willing to really test its characters and still maintain their optimism and trust for others and have it returned? That's an empowering feeling.


A story needs strong emotions. In many ways what I don't like about the tragic backstory is that it falls flat on delivery when instead it should be what the character is feeling in the present. Keep it raw and significant. Just don't go full Joss Whedon about it.

TLDR, there's a huge goddamn gulf between drama and melodrama and it's the real test of a writer.



Heros don't necessarily need a tragic backstory, no. Hell, not even antiheros need it. For example, in the Slayers cast - Zelgadis got shit on massively... but Lina? Her 'tragic backstory' is pretty much just being scared of her badass sister and the horrible secret of her magic name (Lina the Pink).

 

[sneakykitten]

Please, somebody, tell @Kinetic to stop coming in here to make tragic backstories about me personally and not characters. He actually asserted that I believe I was raised in an orphanage? I never talk about myself in this thread, he was actually trolling.

 

[bluepencil]

Please, somebody, tell @Kinetic to stop coming in here to make tragic backstories about me personally and not characters. He actually asserted that I believe I was raised in an orphanage? I never talk about myself in this thread, he was actually trolling.

Stop. He never said that either.

Sure thing! Do tell, have you ever talked about this with an actual orphanage-raised person, for example? You should try, it's going to be very enlightening conversation.

where did i say i was raised in an orphanage? you making shit up, sweetie.

You were the first and only one to say that.

What he asked is if you knew anyone who was actually raised in an orphanage and spoke to them about their experiences.


He's trolling, yes. But don't try to make me pity you. I don't have the time nor emotional energy for that.


[edit]
Which I suppose is part of the backlash against tragic backstories, come to think of it. It's not necessary information. One shouldn't rely on it to get sympathy. Present behavior matters more.

 

[sneakykitten]

What he asked is if you knew anyone who was actually raised in an orphanage and spoke to them about their experiences.


He's trolling, yes. But don't try to make me pity you. I don't have the time nor emotional energy for that.


[edit]
Which I suppose is part of the backlash against tragic backstories, come to think of it. It's not necessary information. One shouldn't rely on it to get sympathy. Present behavior matters more.

I guess I don't. I do know kids who were abandoned by one or both parents, tho no one who ever 'grew up in an orphanage.' Why does that question even matter tho? He's rambling for paragraphs about how Mothers should die so their kids get their 'loot,' bullies are amazing and suffering girls they beat on should cry more and take it, somebody whose friend or parent or lover or sibling die in a car crash and fuck them? His posts made literally almost zero sense, and asking if I have experiences chatting with orphans doesn't really make sense to me either?

I wasn't trying to make anybody pity me. I don't do that. Stop. Please.

And yes, you're right. Present behaviors matter more. Just that in 'fiction' we get to see chars' entire lives. We can see exactly how and when they were fucked up and in what ways. 'Fiction' relies on a backstory to generate a rapport with a char, 'cause like, they get to show stuff about a char's life that no one in real life except their closest friends and relatives would know for sure. And I happen to love hearing about people's lives, no matter how twisted or full of violence or nastiness.

So... while how you behave now should matter more than in the past, I just don't see this huge issue with tragic backstories that @Kinetic was crying about? How is wanna empathize with a girl who has a collection of tragedies in her life a bad thing for anybody to do?

 

[bluepencil]

I guess I don't. I do know kids who were abandoned by one or both parents, tho no one who ever 'grew up in an orphanage.' Why does that question even matter tho? He's rambling for paragraphs about how Mothers should die so their kids get their 'loot,' bullies are amazing and suffering girls they beat on should cry more and take it, somebody whose friend or parent or lover or sibling die in a car crash and fuck them? His posts made literally almost zero sense, and asking if I have experiences chatting with orphans doesn't really make sense to me either?

That's called hyperbole. You certainly don't expect everyone in the Internet to mean everything they say perfectly seriously, do you?

Reductio ad absurdum is a method of making comparisons in which you take things to the most ridiculous conclusions. If for example you really hated the idea of forced tragic backstories as ridiculous, then it is equally as valid to have intensely opposite reactions to it. The worse the tragedy is, the greater the backlash to it.

If the reader doesn't want to care, then there's nothing the writer can make them do about it. That's all. Fictional people don't matter.

People engaging in hyperbole aren't sociopaths in real life the same way no one who plays an FPS is training in a murder simulator.

I wasn't trying to make anybody pity me. I don't do that. Stop. Please.

Then please actually read other people's posts properly and stop accusing them of things they do not do. I have read you wailing for help for something blatantly false.

I will stop but I will not forget. First impressions matter.

And yes, you're right. Present behaviors matter more. Just that in 'fiction' we get to see chars' entire lives. We can see exactly how and when they were fucked up and in what ways. 'Fiction' relies on a backstory to generate a rapport with a char, 'cause like, they get to show stuff about a char's life that no one in real life except their closest friends and relatives would know for sure. And I happen to love hearing about people's lives, no matter how twisted or full of violence or nastiness.

So... while how you behave now should matter more than in the past, I just don't see this huge issue with tragic backstories that @Kinetic was crying about? How is wanna empathize with a girl who has a collection of tragedies in her life a bad thing for anybody to do?

TLDR, some people are just fucking edgelords. Just ignore them. We don't need to hear walls of text belaboring people for wrongthink either. If it's obvious they're trolling you, don't respond. They win when you do.

Tragic backstories are not an issue except they're overused by unskilled writers. That's why it's almost always a requirement for a Mary Sue... except that Japan has gone fully the other way around with the most painfully generic mundane main characters possible. Extremes are bad, okay?

No real writer gives a shit. The only duty a writer has is to write, whether it is appreciated or not is up to the audience and if one segment doesn't then so what? You can't please everybody. Writing to a formula is worse, because you don't have any idea of why the thing that is popular works the way it actually does and may give only a superficial story that cannot truly engage people.


TLDR V2, Should this character have a tragic backstory? IT DEPENDS. If every character has a tragic backstory that saps the whole point of it. Remember the Hero's Journey. The Call to Adventure takes many forms.

 

[sneakykitten]

That's called hyperbole. You certainly don't expect everyone in the Internet to mean everything they say perfectly seriously, do you?

Reductio ad absurdum is a method of making comparisons in which you take things to the most ridiculous conclusions. If for example you really hated the idea of forced tragic backstories as ridiculous, then it is equally as valid to have intensely opposite reactions to it. The worse the tragedy is, the greater the backlash to it.

If the reader doesn't want to care, then there's nothing the writer can make them do about it. That's all. Fictional people don't matter.

People engaging in hyperbole aren't sociopaths in real life the same way no one who plays an FPS is training in a murder simulator.

Um, yes, I kinda do when they talking about issues that happen in real life too? Somebody's mother died and you wanna take their stuff? Fuck that noise. Yet okay, I know he not serious, I still judge him a lot tho.

And actually FPSes can train people to be aggressive I feel. Pretending the media you consume on a daily basis has no effect on you at all is kinda silly imo.

Then please actually read other people's posts properly and stop accusing them of things they do not do. I have read you wailing for help for something blatantly false.

I will stop but I will not forget. First impressions matter.

I'm only saying how I feel. Why are accusations so bad? It's really simple to respond to accusations with how they are wrong and a cry for this crying girl to shut her trap, isn't it? What did I 'wail for help for' that is blatantly false, please?

Forget what? What did I do now???

TLDR, some people are just fucking edgelords. Just ignore them. We don't need to hear walls of text belaboring people for wrongthink either. If it's obvious they're trolling you, don't respond. They win when you do.

Tragic backstories are not an issue except they're overused by unskilled writers. That's why it's almost always a requirement for a Mary Sue... except that Japan has gone fully the other way around with the most painfully generic mundane main characters possible. Extremes are bad, okay?

No real writer gives a shit. The only duty a writer has is to write, whether it is appreciated or not is up to the audience and if one segment doesn't then so what? You can't please everybody. Writing to a formula is worse, because you don't have any idea of why the thing that is popular works the way it actually does and may give only a superficial story that cannot truly engage people.


TLDR V2, Should this character have a tragic backstory? IT DEPENDS. If every character has a tragic backstory that saps the whole point of it. Remember the Hero's Journey. The Call to Adventure takes many forms.

Aaaah. I gotta ignore a whole lot of ppls meow, then.... i dunno?

I feel like tragic backstories are fine and not overused at all. Why does everybody need to be normal and well adjusted to be interesting? Almost no one I know is normal or well adjusted. It doesn't reflect anything about the real issues these edgelords are writing about. I guess I should ignore those chars then?

Not every char Does have a tragic backstory except in certain shows. Kinetic was making up a problem that don't exist. In my post he quoted, he didn't read what I was saying either, and trashed me like hell for it for no reason. How is that right?

And yes, I will judge people for being gross nasty a-holes, they need to realize that they were wrong and stop screaming at girls with different opinions to shut the fuck up.

 

[JUSTSOMEALIN]

And actually FPSes can train people to be aggressive I feel. Pretending the media you consume on a daily basis has no effect on you at all is kinda silly imo.

Perhaps on younger audiences such as pre-teens, MAYBE...

but by the time you have laid down your own morals, FPSes are not going to chance you as a person at all.

As a longtime fan of Doom AND Metal Gear Solid ever since I was 6, I can tell you that I am not a violent man who wants to shoot people in the head, nor am I a secret agent out to kill secret terrorist organizations, nor do I feel the need to snap people's necks.

Seeing as I don't have these needs... I don't think violent video games even from a younger age are that bad.

 

[Horton]

Perhaps on younger audiences such as pre-teens, MAYBE...

but by the time you have laid down your own morals, FPSes are not going to chance you as a person at all.

As a longtime fan of Doom AND Metal Gear Solid ever since I was 6, I can tell you that I am not a violent man who wants to shoot people in the head, nor am I a secret agent out to kill secret terrorist organizations, nor do I feel the need to snap people's necks.

Seeing as I don't have these needs... I don't think violent video games even from a younger age are that bad.

Honestly, I'd be more worried with shows like House Of Cards on the young, which portray the bad guy as being the main character.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Seeing as I don't have these needs... I don't think violent video games even from a younger age are that bad.

Try to tell that to those parental guardian idiots then...

 

[Warringer]

I was about to say that I dislike authors settling their characters with tragic backstories, but that remembered that it would be quite hypocritical of myself to say that, considering 'Growing Horizons'.

Tragic backstories do have their place, but there should not be a tragic event happen every Tuesday, that way lays grim derp.

 

[Mark Poe]

Now I think about it, I don't actually recall writing characters with tragic backstories, now factions on the other hand... does a lot of butthurt counts as tragic backstory?

 

[Warringer]

Now I think about it, I don't actually recall writing characters with tragic backstories, now factions on the other hand... does a lot of butthurt counts as tragic backstory?

Depends a bit on the kind of butt hurt, I think.

 

[bluepencil]

Um, yes, I kinda do when they talking about issues that happen in real life too? Somebody's mother died and you wanna take their stuff? Fuck that noise. Yet okay, I know he not serious, I still judge him a lot tho.

That is not empathy, however. Mmm. How do I put this...

1Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.…

Sorry.

And actually FPSes can train people to be aggressive I feel. Pretending the media you consume on a daily basis has no effect on you at all is kinda silly imo.

Sorry, but I must categorically disagree. Even children are capable of distinguishing between reality and fantasy. There is plenty of science behind this, stress relief is merely stress relief. People consume music in their daily lives as well, and certainly listening to Bohemian Rhapsody and Another One Bites the Dust has not urged me to participate in any gang wars.

In fact, the reverse is true. The more repressed a person is on the outside, the more they seek to fulfill their "perverted" desires in private. Hence why it is a fact that the most prudish states are actually the largest consumers of porn in the nation. Or literally... everything... about the Japanese.

(Shit, by how many Total War or Tropico games I've devoured so far, I should be goddamn well President of the World by now. )

People are incredibly variable and capable of reasoning for their own net benefit. To treat them as easily manipulated caricatures is doing them a disservice. If you seek enemies, you will find them. If you open your hearts to friends, you will have them.

Let us be a community, @sneakykitten . Learn to let go.

And yes, I will judge people for being gross nasty a-holes, they need to realize that they were wrong and stop screaming at girls with different opinions to shut the fuck up.

Then please excuse me if I do not see your behavior as any different. It takes two to tango after all.

I don't ask you to ignore abuse, I ask you to learn when you're just going to be wasting your own time and emotional energy for irrelevant bullshit. This is an internet forum. Nobody gives a shit who you are in real life, only the present matters. You and I are just a name on a screen, and whoever you're dealing with will forget you as soon as they're in another browser window. Literally no one can make you do anything you don't want to do without hacking your PC. The nature of the beast is that all we can offer is our opinions.

Nobody wins any fucking internet points by being the better flamer. All it does is destroy the productive discussion in a thread.

I cannot be sympathetic to the feeling of being unwelcome if both sides seem determined to attack each other. I will help neither, maybe sometimes to point out the facts behind whatever the shite they're going on about this time so that their off-topic bickering doesn't take over the thread. I'm saying this to you in particular because the other person has already GTFO'ed off this thread.



And this is the reason I'm not a mod in the anywhere, because I can't be arsed to deal with bullshit like this day after day trying to impose some respectful standard of behavior. So please feel free to completely ignore all of this if you want.

I was about to say that I dislike authors settling their characters with tragic backstories, but that remembered that it would be quite hypocritical of myself to say that, considering 'Growing Horizons'.

Tragic backstories do have their place, but there should not be a tragic event happen every Tuesday, that way lays grim derp.

I hate the Fridged Girlfriend trope the most. Tragic backstories can be mostly ignored as long as the MCs don't moan about them all the time, but dammit can't you lot just allow them a good stable long-term relationship?! Women as characters, after having been spent time being developed and hopefully induce reader attachment, just suddenly killed off as a device for shock value. Tortured. Mutilated. Just to wring our hearts out in surprise and disbelief.

It's the dramatic equivalent of a cat being thrown in your face as a scare chord in horror BGMs. It pumps the heartrate up suddenly, but overall does nothing worthwhile.


HEY, COMIC BOOK AND TV SHOW WRITERS. THIS IS WHY WE REFUSE TO CARE ABOUT ANY NEW CHARACTERS YOU INTRODUCE, DUMBASSES.

 

[Mark Poe]

Depends a bit on the kind of butt hurt, I think.

Certainly not enough for them to embrace fascism. (it makes sense in context, actually I'm not sure about that, but having fantasy elves going the nazi route is kinda hilarious)

 

[Warringer]

I hate the Fridged Girlfriend trope the most. Tragic backstories can be mostly ignored as long as the MCs don't moan about them all the time, but dammit can't you lot just allow them a good stable long-term relationship?! Women as characters, after having been spent time being developed and hopefully induce reader attachment, just suddenly killed off as a device for shock value. Tortured. Mutilated. Just to wring our hearts out in surprise and disbelief.

It's the dramatic equivalent of a cat being thrown in your face as a scare chord in horror BGMs. It pumps the heartrate up suddenly, but overall does nothing worthwhile.


HEY, COMIC BOOK AND TV SHOW WRITERS. THIS IS WHY WE REFUSE TO CARE ABOUT ANY NEW CHARACTERS YOU INTRODUCE, DUMBASSES.

THIS!

Oh so much this!

 

[sneakykitten]

Perhaps on younger audiences such as pre-teens, MAYBE...

but by the time you have laid down your own morals, FPSes are not going to chance you as a person at all.

As a longtime fan of Doom AND Metal Gear Solid ever since I was 6, I can tell you that I am not a violent man who wants to shoot people in the head, nor am I a secret agent out to kill secret terrorist organizations, nor do I feel the need to snap people's necks.

Seeing as I don't have these needs... I don't think violent video games even from a younger age are that bad.

No, you not a violent person or an aggressive person. I definitely know that. Laying down your own morals is extremely difficult when there are competing influences in your life, and there aren't exactly flashing signs pointing to 'the right thing to do.' So yes, consuming violence especially on teens and kids can make you more violent. I don't go around hurting peoples either, ever, and so I'm mostly talking about more impressionable audiences.

Sorry.

Sorry, but I must categorically disagree. Even children are capable of distinguishing between reality and fantasy. There is plenty of science behind this, stress relief is merely stress relief. People consume music in their daily lives as well, and certainly listening to Bohemian Rhapsody and Another One Bites the Dust has not urged me to participate in any gang wars.

In fact, the reverse is true. The more repressed a person is on the outside, the more they seek to fulfill their "perverted" desires in private. Hence why it is a fact that the most prudish states are actually the largest consumers of porn in the nation. Or literally... everything... about the Japanese.

(Shit, by how many Total War or Tropico games I've devoured so far, I should be goddamn well President of the World by now. )

People are incredibly variable and capable of reasoning for their own net benefit. To treat them as easily manipulated caricatures is doing them a disservice. If you seek enemies, you will find them. If you open your hearts to friends, you will have them.

Let us be a community, @sneakykitten . Learn to let go.

It' s okay when peoples judge or gossip about me. I'm not mortally terrified of mutual judgments or gossip.

Some children are not capable of that. And we gotta have empathy for somebody easily led stray by consuming violence or aggression. Yes, there are scientific studies about how violent games or TV shows or books could be good for dealing with stress, I happen to kinda disagree with scientists a lot too? I'm not urged to violence or gang activities by media either and this isn't about my behavior. Except where I apparently make peoples wanna GTFO threads.

Japanese peoples have something to do with prudish repression and porn consumption? All... Japanese peoples?

(Haha, you right though, consuming war games or political games won't make some peoples wanna take over the world. Some edgelords are kinda preoccupied by it tho and I worry about their behavior for Society's Sake. )

No one is treating anybody like an easily manipulated caricature. I feel you are trying to urge me with your words to 'admit something' I'm not doing. I have let go of tons of things and I'm totally open to being part of a community'with anybody. I never sought enemies I am always open to friends. So what's up with saying that I'm not letting us be a community? I am letting go of tons of things and I've forgive everybody who hurt me, I'm open to being a community, there's no need to try to urge me to admit I manipulate you all when I never did that, Please.

Then please excuse me if I do not see your behavior as any different. It takes two to tango after all.

I don't ask you to ignore abuse, I ask you to learn when you're just going to be wasting your own time and emotional energy for irrelevant bullshit. This is an internet forum. Nobody gives a shit who you are in real life, only the present matters. You and I are just a name on a screen, and whoever you're dealing with will forget you as soon as they're in another browser window. Literally no one can make you do anything you don't want to do without hacking your PC. The nature of the beast is that all we can offer is our opinions.

Nobody wins any fucking internet points by being the better flamer. All it does is destroy the productive discussion in a thread.

I cannot be sympathetic to the feeling of being unwelcome if both sides seem determined to attack each other. I will help neither, maybe sometimes to point out the facts behind whatever the shite they're going on about this time so that their off-topic bickering doesn't take over the thread. I'm saying this to you in particular because the other person has already GTFO'ed off this thread.



And this is the reason I'm not a mod in the anywhere, because I can't be arsed to deal with bullshit like this day after day trying to impose some respectful standard of behavior. So please feel free to completely ignore all of this if you want.

Saying that it takes two to participate in the abuse of me when I was never talking about my life in here? I never say anything about my life anywhere on here, and no, it does not take two to abuse one person. I never talked about my life and that person made it into a fight about my life. Where's the empathy?

I'm learning that right meow. I never asked peoples to 'give a shit about who I am in real life,' I was never talking about my life, where is all this coming from? Peoples can and do force you to do things you don't wanna do should I explain how? I never talked about my life in this thread, and he made it about my 'tragic backstories,' which is real and not backstories. I don't come here to gab about geeky fiction, sorry.

You right tho, nobody wins points by being a flamer. So why was this person flaming me before I said anything without reading what I wrote like everybody's urging me to do? This person didn't try to understand what I said or give empathy to the idea of caring about tragic backstories. He went right for attacking me, can we not forget this?

No, I don't wanna ignore, and I wanna be a community with anybody. So let's do that, please.

I hate the Fridged Girlfriend trope the most. Tragic backstories can be mostly ignored as long as the MCs don't moan about them all the time, but dammit can't you lot just allow them a good stable long-term relationship?! Women as characters, after having been spent time being developed and hopefully induce reader attachment, just suddenly killed off as a device for shock value. Tortured. Mutilated. Just to wring our hearts out in surprise and disbelief.

It's the dramatic equivalent of a cat being thrown in your face as a scare chord in horror BGMs. It pumps the heartrate up suddenly, but overall does nothing worthwhile.


HEY, COMIC BOOK AND TV SHOW WRITERS. THIS IS WHY WE REFUSE TO CARE ABOUT ANY NEW CHARACTERS YOU INTRODUCE, DUMBASSES.

Yes, stuffing women into fridges and ovens is just stupid bad and horrible. No one except dudes trying to appeal to feminism writes tragic chars only to motivate peoples to simple anger and revenge though. So those dudes who are writing women only to motivate the men in their lives to avenge their deaths need to stop. And when you write 'fiction' about women, you can't ignore that some women do get tortured, mutilated or killed thru no 'control of their own.' It happens in real life and in 'fiction,' and yes, women as chars need stable long term relationships tho nobody can stop something bad like that from happening to them, so why we pretending that peoples only write tragedies to manipulate readers when it's not true? Tragedies happen to chars and real people and they need empathy, and they are not manipulating others to care about them. Unless they a geeky dude writing superhero stories, they seem to love killing off women and girls in gruesome ways to prove that they know the realities girls face.

No one in women's 'fiction' written by women is killed off only for shock value. Please stop insisting this is true when it's not.

I do agree about the cat in your face noise though.

Certainly not enough for them to embrace fascism. (it makes sense in context, actually I'm not sure about that, but having fantasy elves going the nazi route is kinda hilarious)

Yes, fantasy elves are not fucking nazis, and nazis can go fuck themselves. Fascism sucks and needs to die in both 'fiction' and real life.

 

[Mark Poe]

Yes, fantasy elves are not fucking nazis, and nazis can go fuck themselves. Fascism sucks and needs to die in both 'fiction' and real life.

Way to ignore the entire context of what I been writing (in which I'm saying I have written a faction of fantasy elves who embraced fascism (due to some convoluted reasons that makes sense in context), and they're not the heroes by any means). Not gonna argue the point further since you seem to be rather emotionally invested in this thread.

 

[sneakykitten]

Not gonna argue the point further since you seem to be rather emotionally invested in this thread.

Um. What point did I miss about your writing? That you wanna justify nazism with your fantasy elves? And no, actually, I'm not emotionally invested in this at all. I honestly don't care what guys think of me over the 'nets. Please stop honey, you boring.

 

[JUSTSOMEALIN]

That you wanna justify nazism with your fantasy elves?

Actually, I think he means the Elves are the VILLAINS, making the "Nazi Supporters" the unjustified people.

 

[sneakykitten]

Actually, I think he means the Elves are the VILLAINS, making the "Nazi Supporters" the unjustified people.

Yes, nazi supporters are unjustify, tho it seem like he making excuses with his 'convoluted reasons that make sense to them?' Everything makes sense to everybody so what he trying to say really? I'm wrong tho, yes.

 

[bluepencil]

It' s okay when peoples judge or gossip about me. I'm not mortally terrified of mutual judgments or gossip.

*cough*

No one is treating anybody like an easily manipulated caricature. I feel you are trying to urge me with your words to 'admit something' I'm not doing. I have let go of tons of things and I'm totally open to being part of a community'with anybody. I never sought enemies I am always open to friends. So what's up with saying that I'm not letting us be a community? I am letting go of tons of things and I've forgive everybody who hurt me, I'm open to being a community, there's no need to try to urge me to admit I manipulate you all when I never did that, Please.

It's NOT ABOUT YOU. It's what you said.

YOU are not the one manipulating people, it's THE DAILY MEDIA THAT PEOPLE CONSUME and I disagree that people are so easily manipulated. If we're going to talk about media that can manipulate people - it's not ENTERTAINMENT MEDIA, things that we can clearly recognize as fictional. It's MASS MEDIA.

I am 'shouting' in ALL CAPS for EMPHASIS. Like on a NEWSSTAND.

And actually FPSes can train people to be aggressive I feel. Pretending the media you consume on a daily basis has no effect on you at all is kinda silly imo.

IF what you said was true, people WOULD BE easily manipulated caricatures*. That's the whole point. Just as you of course don't accept that everything about Japanese culture is because they are all sexually repressed, it is equally ridiculous to state that FPS train people to be aggressive in real life. Real life doesn't have savepoints. Young teens who scream over voice chat are very unlikely to do so in a venue where they're more likely to get their real life teeth kicked in.
*And maybe they are? Fuck, it's 2018. What the hell do I know.

Saying that it takes two to participate in the abuse of me when I was never talking about my life in here? I never say anything about my life anywhere on here, and no, it does not take two to abuse one person. I never talked about my life and that person made it into a fight about my life. Where's the empathy?

I'm learning that right meow. I never asked peoples to 'give a shit about who I am in real life,' I was never talking about my life, where is all this coming from? Peoples can and do force you to do things you don't wanna do should I explain how? I never talked about my life in this thread, and he made it about my 'tragic backstories,' which is real and not backstories. I don't come here to gab about geeky fiction, sorry.

You right tho, nobody wins points by being a flamer. So why was this person flaming me before I said anything without reading what I wrote like everybody's urging me to do? This person didn't try to understand what I said or give empathy to the idea of caring about tragic backstories. He went right for attacking me, can we not forget this?

No, I don't wanna ignore, and I wanna be a community with anybody. So let's do that, please.

https://www.frozenincarbonite.org/threads/ask-a-moderaror.353/page-2

Open request to mods: Why is it ok for other users to publicly harass me in 'fiction' threads? I report that shit twice and you guys did nothing. Fuck this noise, why??

Coming into a thread to misquote my posts and make a 'debate about fictional tragedies' into lecturing me about how my real story is not 'deserving of empathy 'cause cry more lil girl' is not harassment? U guys have weird definitions of harassment then.

No, I wait for him to do it again. He seems very nice tho aside from this so we'll see. Tho what's up with this 'repeated stuff' when he goes on huge text walls that I'm just making up stories about real life? That is repeated. Anyway, I done, the mods here aren't empathetic to my suffering whatsoever.

No, it is the harasser's duty to be told to leave girls alone. No matter how much they flirt with him. He need to not abusively bully the fuck out of girls who aren't even writing fake stories, he was being a huge abusive douchebag and you guys let him get away with it. Fuck this noise to hell.

Nope, U really not, where are U empathetic to anything I've said? I get ignore here on a daily basis except when peoples wanna tell me to go cry some more or 'try harder?' Like what???

That guy was harassing me, it only takes once and he should've not even said those things to start with. He made it into a fight about real life and you guys are happy to let guys play all over me. So I feel like this conversation is getting a little abusive, don't you?

It' s okay when peoples judge or gossip about me. I'm not mortally terrified of mutual judgments or gossip.

THIS POST is nothing about you. He just hated characters that sound like they're trying to hard to force the readers to care, so he would rather fictional people just suffer more or the hell over themselves.

THIS POST that you were going calling about for help making up stuff about your life has nothing about that. Didn't we just do this earlier? You can't seriously have forgotten about that, have you? We can all read it, no one said anything ever about your real life in there.

YOU are the first and only one to bring your real life on this. IRL is irrelevant. No one cares. We're here to talk to others about the things we enjoy and share our perspectives. Why are you bringing up 'making things up about you' like reputation is something precious on a random web forum? Why are you insisting that we're talking about your real life? Where is all this coming from? YOU keep bringing it up!

I was just saying the only person in control of how you feel (over pointless things on the Internet) is YOU. This is basic. Time spent typing a tirade on a keyboard is time and energy spent that could have been spent on anything else you could enjoy; this is universal. Everybody deals with this.

What do you think this is, 1999? Women are common on the internet. You're not dealing with teenagers here. >_> Girl, you're already a part of the community when you're not feeling like every casual thing other people do is an attack on you. Relaaaaaaaaax.

Yes, stuffing women into fridges and ovens is just stupid bad and horrible. No one except dudes trying to appeal to feminism writes tragic chars only to motivate peoples to simple anger and revenge though. So those dudes who are writing women only to motivate the men in their lives to avenge their deaths need to stop. And when you write 'fiction' about women, you can't ignore that some women do get tortured, mutilated or killed thru no 'control of their own.' It happens in real life and in 'fiction,' and yes, women as chars need stable long term relationships tho nobody can stop something bad like that from happening to them, so why we pretending that peoples only write tragedies to manipulate readers when it's not true? Tragedies happen to chars and real people and they need empathy, and they are not manipulating others to care about them. Unless they a geeky dude writing superhero stories, they seem to love killing off women and girls in gruesome ways to prove that they know the realities girls face.

No one in women's 'fiction' written by women is killed off only for shock value. Please stop insisting this is true when it's not.

Dear Lord why. This is what is pissing me off. NO ONE HAS SAID THIS. Why do you keep accusing people of things they do not do? Please stop.

Don't shut up. No one is asking you to shut up.

I was actually nodding my head agreeing with what you just said as a good insightful post. That's what makes comic book writers BAD, and it's the difference between crappy fiction and real literature. One is imitating the other without realizing why it's so effective. There must be a purpose to pain, and characters grow from the obstacles and even setbacks they experience. I just talked about "The Wandering Inn" here earlier - it's a great serial novel. You might like it. You might not like how helpless the MC is for the first few chapters, but it's useful to note how much she has grown from that - the lower you start off, the more impressive it is to rise up to the occasion. Just from the very strong narrative voice you can recognize that it's written by a woman.

Then suddenly you went off into fantasyland putting words into other people's mouths.

Please just stop making false accusations.

Please stop making false accusations.

Please react only to what people have actually said instead of what you want them to have said. That's all that is asked from a respectful discussion.

I am not attacking you. I was trying to be friendly with you. Friends are allowed to disagree, just because I don't happen to agree 100% with what you're saying doesn't make me your enemy. It makes me feel bad to be implied to be someone I'm not. I have zero shits to give about the gender games.

Please stop making stuff up about what people are saying.

Please genuinely engage with other people's posts instead of some nebulous agenda against you.

 

[sneakykitten]

It's NOT ABOUT YOU. It's what you said.

YOU are not the one manipulating people, it's THE DAILY MEDIA THAT PEOPLE CONSUME and I disagree that people are so easily manipulated. If we're going to talk about media that can manipulate people - it's not ENTERTAINMENT MEDIA, things that we can clearly recognize as fictional. It's MASS MEDIA.

I am 'shouting' in ALL CAPS for EMPHASIS. Like on a NEWSSTAND.

Yes, I understand now. And you definitely right. I still feel like entertainment media does give some ppls bad ideas tho. Is that totally wrong? Nice emphasis by the way, ha ha. I love you and your emphasis.

IF what you said was true, people WOULD BE easily manipulated caricatures*. That's the whole point. Just as you of course don't accept that everything about Japanese culture is because they are all sexually repressed, it is equally ridiculous to state that FPS train people to be aggressive in real life. Real life doesn't have savepoints. Young teens who scream over voice chat are very unlikely to do so in a venue where they're more likely to get their real life teeth kicked in.
*And maybe they are? Fuck, it's 2018. What the hell do I know.

Okay, definitely. Real life isn't a videogame. That wasn't really what I trying to say though? Haha, nobody wanna get their real life teeth kick in especially angry teens who slam their tables and scream about mold over public videos.

THIS POST is nothing about you. He just hated characters that sound like they're trying to hard to force the readers to care, so he would rather fictional people just suffer more or the hell over themselves.

I can't read the post, I trust that it not about me though. I know this is a discussion about fictional people. I was never making this... all... about me. I feel like somebody else did first, though I admit I am wrong.

THIS POST that you were going calling about for help making up stuff about your life has nothing about that. Didn't we just do this earlier? You can't seriously have forgotten about that, have you? We can all read it, no one said anything ever about your real life in there.

I actually did forget. Sorry.

YOU are the first and only one to bring your real life on this. IRL is irrelevant. No one cares. We're here to talk to others about the things we enjoy and share our perspectives. Why are you bringing up 'making things up about you' like reputation is something precious on a random web forum? Why are you insisting that we're talking about your real life? Where is all this coming from? YOU keep bringing it up!

I was just saying the only person in control of how you feel is YOU. This is basic. Time spent typing a tirade on a keyboard is time and energy spent that could have been spent on anything else you could enjoy; this is universal. Everybody deals with this.

What do you think this is, 1999? Women are common on the internet. You're not dealing with teenagers here. >_> Girl, you're already a part of the community when you're not feeling like every casual thing other people do is an attack on you. Relaaaaaaaaax.

I insisted because Kinetic came at me with a question about have I, personally, ever chatted with orphans. That was it. I'm not in control of how I feel. You can't perfectly control how you feel. Nobody can. I was never typing a tirade, I feel like that's a misrepresentation. I wasn't angry at all, completely dispassionate actually, this discussion about comic book chars does little for me. I never felt like other peoples attack me by being casual. I feel that way when their words or actions are threatening. I'm totally relaxed now though.

Dear Lord why. This is what is pissing me off. NO ONE HAS SAID THIS. Why do you keep accusing people of things they do not do? Please stop.

Don't shut up. No one is asking you to shut up.

I was actually nodding my head agreeing with what you just said as a good insightful post. That's what makes comic book writers BAD, and it's the difference between crappy fiction and real literature. One is imitating the other without realizing why it's so effective. There must be a purpose to pain, and characters grow from the obstacles and even setbacks they experience. I just talked about "The Wandering Inn" here earlier - it's a great serial novel. You might like it. You might not like how helpless the MC is for the first few chapters, but it's useful to note how much she has grown from that - the lower you start off, the more impressive it is to rise up to the occasion. Just from the very strong narrative voice you can recognize that it's written by a woman.

Then suddenly you went off into fantasyland putting words into other people's mouths.

Please just stop making false accusations.

Please stop making false accusations.

Please react only to what people have actually said instead of what you want them to have said. That's all that is asked from a respectful discussion.

I am not attacking you. I was trying to be friendly with you. Friends are allowed to disagree, just because I don't happen to agree 100% with what you're saying doesn't make me your enemy. It makes me feel bad to be implied to be someone I'm not. I have zero shits to give about the gender games.

Please stop making stuff up about what people are saying.

Please genuinely engage with other people's posts instead of some nebulous agenda against you.

Kinetic did say that writers try to push tragic backstories only to manipulate readers. That's what I really feel like he was saying. I admit that I'm wrong. If no one asking me to shut up then why does loneliness drown me as everybody slowly or extremely quickly leaves??

Umm, I was talking about the Frigid Girlfriend trope and all those comic book chars stuff into kitchen appliances, not "The Wandering Inn." And I don't really recognize peoples' voices in writing sometimes so I really can't instantly tell which books written by women? I can recognize most, not all. What is the purpose to pain and suffering? It hurting me trying to understand.

Yes, I believe that you not attacking me. I felt like I was just disagreeing tho, not like, flipping out? I love that you can tell me how it is. Have I come anywhere close to a good answer to your post?

 

[bluepencil]

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with writers trying to manipulate readers though? That's what the entirety of writing is about. Good writers try to provoke emotions in other people with nothing but words.

You can't control how you feel, okay. That's true. Perhaps I said it wrongly - only you can control how you express that feeling, and how people will see your personality. But in a (comic) book, there is no such give and take. Great writers are masters are playing other people's emotions like musical instruments.

Or to put it another way, it's just fine the same way Freddy Mercury could hold us in the palm of his hand with just a single "Eeey-yo!"


Stupid forced melodrama is not going to stir a reader's emotions because they can feel just how FAKE it is.

A great story is a conversation between reader and writer. Their emotions resonate. But stupid emo backstories and shock twists, it's like the writer shouting at the reader "CAN YOU FEEL THIS? FEEL IT! FEEL IT! WHY AREN'T YOU FEELING SAD YET?" We as people can barely raise any emotional connections for people outside our monkeysphere , no fictional character is owed any default sympathy. We are here to be entertained. If it's not interesting enough, it's fair enough to just leave.

It's a matter of trust. It's disrespecting the intelligence of their readers.


But personally I feel they should stop it with the tragic backstories. It's boring now. Literature must be fresh and unique to stand out from the crowd. Heroes must have "Origin Stories", and trauma is so overused as a way to force characters give a shit about any people other than themselves and their immediate emotional circle.

But in fact, the opposite can be said to be just as true - the BEST villains are those with tragic backstories too! It actually works better for villains because it gives them a sympathetic motivation that disquiets the readers and makes it even more tragic in the present that they chose the wrong path of dealing with their trauma. In hurting others or trying to force people to change their minds with force instead of opening their hearts out to give and accept kindness and never returning hurt for hurt.

Extremes are bad, m'kay? By going too far out trying to protect themselves or seek revenge on others, they cross the line into being evil instead of being justifiably upset.

 

[JUSTSOMEALIN]

But personally I feel they should stop it with the tragic backstories.

I believe that if a hero is go8ng to be a tragic and lone wolf, you should not write a tragic backstory, but instead write a tragic LIFE for him.

 

[sneakykitten]

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with writers trying to manipulate readers though? That's what the entirety of writing is about. Good writers try to provoke emotions in other people with nothing but words.

You can't control how you feel, okay. That's true. Perhaps I said it wrongly - only you can control how you express that feeling, and how people will see your personality. But in a (comic) book, there is no such give and take. Great writers are masters are playing other people's emotions like musical instruments.

Or to put it another way, it's just fine the same way Freddy Mercury could hold us in the palm of his hand with just a single "Eeey-yo!"


Stupid forced melodrama is not going to stir a reader's emotions because they can feel just how FAKE it is.

A great story is a conversation between reader and writer. Their emotions resonate. But stupid emo backstories and shock twists, it's like the writer shouting at the reader "CAN YOU FEEL THIS? FEEL IT! FEEL IT! WHY AREN'T YOU FEELING SAD YET?" We as people can barely raise any emotional connections for people outside our monkeysphere , no fictional character is owed any default sympathy. We are here to be entertained. If it's not interesting enough, it's fair enough to just leave.

It's a matter of trust. It's disrespecting the intelligence of their readers.

I feel like there may be something wrong with writers trying to manipulate readers with their words. 'Manipulation' is this 'forced melodrama' we talking about. Manipulation and not actual expressions of real feelings are cheapening 'fiction' into bland, boring nonsense.

Yes, stupid emo backstories are the problem. In fiction, you have to have a good reason why this bad girl hurts other peoples. Like say her Mommy isolates her from other children by saying she bad and wrong, then leaves, then her daddy takes over and starts screaming at her and hitting her to modify her behavior. And all that hurt and pain, slowly builds up, and then suddenly she can't perfectly control herself and sometimes goes a little cray cray. Like Azula, and by the way, I don't care if you guys think she has a stupid and emo backstory that's not the point. Anyway~

Yes, people are 'owed default sympathy,' at least to me. I care even about chars in fiction very much. And it hurts me to leave behind stories or whatevs.

You have a lot of intelligence! I don't though so I love having my intelligence disrespected by 'bad, emo shock twists and sadness.' Sadness is not bad. Emo is not bad.

But personally I feel they should stop it with the tragic backstories. It's boring now. Literature must be fresh and unique to stand out from the crowd. Heroes must have "Origin Stories", and trauma is so overused as a way to force characters give a shit about any people other than themselves and their immediate emotional circle.

But in fact, the opposite can be said to be just as true - the BEST villains are those with tragic backstories too! It actually works better for villains because it gives them a sympathetic motivation that disquiets the readers and makes it even more tragic in the present that they chose the wrong path of dealing with their trauma. In hurting others or trying to force people to change their minds with force instead of opening their hearts out to give and accept kindness and never returning hurt for hurt.

Extremes are bad, m'kay? By going too far out trying to protect themselves or seek revenge on others, they cross the line into being evil instead of being justifiably upset.

They should stop it with the tragic backstories for heroes, yes. Villains though, definitely, I wanna see more of that. What is 'too far though?' Like, peoples seem very messed up about what they consider a 'bad villain' like... they love shitty chars from WoW for being huge racist macho soldier dudes. They love shitty chars from American Horror Story for being huge, twisted, messed up lies about trans girls. They love melodramatic girls who kill each other over stories.

And they consider villains like May to be terrible when she was isolated from the entire world for something no little girl could control. She had an eye disorder and she had to wear a patch and be perfect.

Heroes though, definitely, don't need trauma to be good heroes. I just empathize with villains. Not for the hurting others part really. More for how they are allowed to represent problems that a writer may notice about the real world or society or whatever. And no, sweeties, I'm not talking about my real life in any of this post.

'Justifiably upset' kinda changes from person to person. And all I ever said was that I care about little girls who were hit, hit on or locked away from the rest of society because we have to be perfect skinny skeletons.

I believe that if a hero is go8ng to be a tragic and lone wolf, you should not write a tragic backstory, but instead write a tragic LIFE for him.

What's the difference between a 'backstory and a Life,' though? Please do tell, I Love, Love, Love your very patient and caring writing style. <3