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Inquisitor Solarion

Well-known member
And the lot of them are just as cunning, powerful, dangerous yet easily thwarted by brave KGB operatives and heroic MiG-29 pilots. Poor Belarus and poor Russia, innocent victims of the West's constant machinations.
I never said anyone was innocent. But that everyone would naturally and reflexively fall back to their tribal denominations and defend the legitimacy of their actions.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
I never said anyone was innocent. But that everyone would naturally and reflexively fall back to their tribal denominations and defend the legitimacy of their actions.
Not much legitimacy in doing air piracy, TBH. Not back during the Algeria War when we did it, not now, but the usual trolls are going at it with the same toolbox as usual:

Five stages of arguing with a Russian nationalist
 

Wakko

Well-known member
And the lot of them are just as cunning, powerful, dangerous yet easily thwarted by brave KGB operatives and heroic MiG-29 pilots. Poor Belarus and poor Russia, innocent victims of the West's constant machinations.
Hey, it's war. Economic, information, cyber - so far, since both sides can shoot back real well. The Eastern EU members (Poland, Latvia, Lithuania) scored a big victory in 2014 when they helped coup Ukraine. They tried to do the same last year in Belarus, and failed. They thought that Lukashenko is just another Yanukovich, when in fact he's obviously very different and much more capable. Now one of their soldiers on the information front was caught by the enemy, bad luck (and a lot of carelessness on Protasevich's side). No matter how Lukashenko presents it at home, we know what it really is. No matter how loud the UK or Czechia scream 'novichok!' we also know what it is... it's information warfare. No matter whom you call a Russian nationalist, we all know why you say it ;)
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Hey, it's war. Economic, information, cyber - so far, since both sides can shoot back real well. The Eastern EU members (Poland, Latvia, Lithuania) scored a big victory in 2014 when they helped coup Ukraine. They tried to do the same last year in Belarus, and failed. They thought that Lukashenko is just another Yanukovich, when in fact he's obviously very different and much more capable. Now one of their soldiers on the information front was caught by the enemy, bad luck (and a lot of carelessness on Protasevich's side). No matter how Lukashenko presents it at home, we know what it really is. No matter how loud the UK or Czechia scream 'novichok!' we also know what it is... it's information warfare. No matter whom you call a Russian nationalist, we all know why you say it ;)
Thank you for confirming the Polandball checklist. :)
 

Wakko

Well-known member
Thank you for confirming the Polandball checklist. :)
Like it matters... this finger pointing game has been going on since 2006 or so, at least since Litvinenko. It never changed a thing. The Russians don't care anymore, the Belorussians are quickly coming to the same conclusion... it looks more and more like our own impotence. Like we can't do anything else but point and scream. And it's becoming very clear that this time it will be more of the same. A lot of screaming, some useless sanctions that wouldn't deter a mouse, and then a silent admission that we still really need Russian gas. The more we hurt Lukashenko economically, the more leverage Putin has over him.
And at the same time, China is steamrolling the world economy and we're afraid to admit to ourselves that it's already too late to do anything about it.
If your Polandball checklist gives you joy, I won't even attempt to take it away from you.
 

Vorpal

Administrator
Administrator
Trying to catch up to most of this, because I've had no time to keep up with this latest kerfuffle until recently...
And the lot of them are just as cunning, powerful, dangerous yet easily thwarted by brave KGB operatives and heroic MiG-29 pilots. Poor Belarus and poor Russia, innocent victims of the West's constant machinations.
Belorussian propaganda seems to be somewhat different: that KGB had just about nothing to do with his arrest, and probably wouldn't have even been aware of his presence on the flight if Protasevich wasn't burned/betrayed by his comrades, probably his Western handlers. ... Now, there's a very obvious advantage of feeding Protasevich that story, but painting the Protasevich as getting into KGB's lap as something of a random happenstance on state TV is somewhat stranger, especially because it is so blatantly bullshit.

Well, I suppose Belarus is hoping for people from the same hang-outs to be distrustful of Western agencies by attempting to paint them as burning their own, much more than they want positive propaganda of KGB competence or bravery (it's actually curious how incompetent KGB is painted in the state TV version of events, if one thinks about it as hypothetically true). So taking the underlying message at face value, nobody involved is especially cunning or dangerous, just perfidious. Russian media seems to have attempted if not particularly successful injections of the same general idea: Protasevich's arrest might have been itself a Western plot for... reasons? I dunno; maybe they're trying to half-heartedly distract from the fact that the most immediate cui bono here is Russia.

Perhaps the only way the Belorussian propaganda story that this wasn't a KGB operation from the start could have even an iota of believability is if the fake bomb threat to divert the plane was actually initiated by Russian security forces instead. But there's basically no way KGB didn't know he was there regardless; the only slight window of uncertainty is how much KGB wanted to have him vs how much GRU/FSB wanted KGB to have him.

But let's be clear here: that Nexta is funded by the Polish government and has Polish security contacts would be 1+1=2 level deduction for any organisation of political significance operating out of the Belarus House in Warsaw, and also freely admitted by Putilo in interviews from basically the start of this saga. That's also why there's a university in Vilnius the sole purpose of which is to crap out pro-Western Belorussian influencers, thus politically protected from losing accreditation despite repeatedly failing the standards of Lithuania's Centre for Quality Asseessment in Higher Education. (Neither are really EU projects, however.)
 

Wakko

Well-known member
So, Nord Stream II operator announced the end of pipe laying of the first pipe of the Nord Stream II pipeline: Завершилась укладка морской части первой нитки "Северного потока — 2" - РИА Новости, 10.06.2021 It's funny how something so mundane and uninteresting for normal people, like another undersea gas pipeline, can be turned into a matter of national pride, and ultimately an important national victory for all Russians by a couple portions of US sanctions and a lot of angry screaming from the usual suspects all around Europe :)
 

Inquisitor Solarion

Well-known member
I believe Ukraine is already feeling "betrayed".

Those suckers really thought they were in for something, other than being used as a missile pincushion.
 

Wakko

Well-known member
I believe Ukraine is already feeling "betrayed".
Yes, there's a lot of that going on in Ukrainian political and analytical sphere right now. Ze had an interview for Axios recently, it's a very interesting read: Ukraine's Zelensky "confused," "disappointed" by Biden pipeline move - Axios
Zelensky says Biden had offered him "direct signals" that the U.S. was prepared to block the pipeline. Then came the news that Biden would be waiving the sanctions.
Zelensky said he had to listen to a White House press briefing to obtain an explanation: The administration said the pipeline was already nearly complete and cited the importance of good relations with Germany.
For those interested in current Ukraine, the whole interview is a must. It's already considered the newest national shame.

Really, if Trump was called Putin's agent, Biden must be his older brother or something. His politics towards Russia is much, much more conciliatory than Trump's ever was. It really looks like the US is desperately trying to get Russia to at least stay neutral in the coming US-China confrontation. As for words, they're nothing compared to sticks and stones...
 

Inquisitor Solarion

Well-known member
The man sounds like he's almost stuttering. I think he just realised that he's been played for a fool. Ah well, they are just in a long line of "allies" who were fed way too many promises by very passionate American individuals who actually thought that the calculus would always be on their side.
 

aldw

New member
The man sounds like he's almost stuttering. I think he just realised that he's been played for a fool. Ah well, they are just in a long line of "allies" who were fed way too many promises by very passionate American individuals who actually thought that the calculus would always be on their side.
That just reminds me of Madame Nhu's statement, "those who have the Americans as friends do not need enemies".
 

Inquisitor Solarion

Well-known member
That just reminds me of Madame Nhu's statement, "those who have the Americans as friends do not need enemies".
Probably doesn't help that many of the people driving policy were descended from Central/Eastern European people with weird ideas about the region... Heck, even Victoria Nuland was descended from Ukrainian Jews.
 
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