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Eastern Europe News

Marek_Gutkowski

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On the 26th of this month, the play "Odpowiedzialność" will premiere in Teatr Powszechny in Warsaw.

The focus of the play is the disregard of the humanitarian and constitutional rights that are still currently undergoing on the Polish-Belarusian border.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
On the 26th of this month, the play "Odpowiedzialność" will premiere in Teatr Powszechny in Warsaw.

The focus of the play is the disregard of the humanitarian and constitutional rights that are still currently undergoing on the Polish-Belarusian border.
Oh, you mean the crisis created by Belarus and Russia to destabilize its neighbours by grabbing people from the ME and throwing them at the Polish borders?

I had to precise "from the ME", because it's not the only such refugee crisis manufactured by Russia and Belarus these days.
 

Marek_Gutkowski

Well-known member
Author
Oh, you mean the crisis created by Belarus and Russia to destabilize its neighbours by grabbing people from the ME and throwing them at the Polish borders?

I had to precise "from the ME", because it's not the only such refugee crisis manufactured by Russia and Belarus these days.
As jokes go, this one is a little unpalatable while also failing at geography somewhat.

But if we take this statement that Polish ruling party made at face value, those Russian-Belarusian actions had a stellar result.
It made us break dozen of laws both internal and international. Suppressed the press and free speech. Institute martial law. And caused preventable loss of life.
But is all good. The ruling party has already dismantled the independent court system. No one is going to prosecute them.
Those people are not going to see the inside of a jail cell they so richly deserve.
Refugees from Afghanistan came up to the Polish border. The ruling party instituted martial law in the area and kicked out the press. Also made it illegal to talk about or report on.
And no it wasn't legal. Our law doesn't allow for any of it. They did it anyway.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
But remember, Belarus and Russia did nothing wrong weaponizing refugees, it's all the fault of Poland for not opening its borders to people sent there by openly hostile countries.
 

Marek_Gutkowski

Well-known member
Author
But remember, Belarus and Russia did nothing wrong weaponizing refugees, it's all the fault of Poland for not opening its borders to people sent there by openly hostile countries.
What you just wrote is an oxymoron.
I know you are making a joke, but this is a very low effort one.
Is this why Mehdi Hasan was all over Youtube sharing verbal barbs with Poland's Foreign Minister on his show?
Donno.
Source?
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
What you just wrote is an oxymoron.
I know you are making a joke, but this is a very low effort one.
Is it an oxymoron? I was simply agreeing with the known fact that in this region, the actions of Belarus and Russia are justified, cunning and practical while the actions of EU countries are awful, dictatorial and hurting everyone.

Edit: sorry, I forgot to add "holistic" to Belarus' and Russia's moves. Important thing, that, holistic.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
But remember, Belarus and Russia did nothing wrong weaponizing refugees, it's all the fault of Poland for not opening its borders to people sent there by openly hostile countries.

Replace Belarus and Russia with Turkey or some north African countries there, and you'd have the literal, unironic stance of some Western liberals towards any European country that wanted to control its borders.

Game of "hot potato" where refusing to play was seen as despicable. Or something.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Replace Belarus and Russia with Turkey or some north African countries there, and you'd have the literal, unironic stance of some Western liberals towards any European country that wanted to control its borders.

Game of "hot potato" where refusing to play was seen as despicable. Or something.
Quite a bit worse in the case of Belarus/Russia since they are actually hostile countries regularly performing acts of terrorism, assassination and actual piracy against our countries, therefore it is highly likely they would maximize the presence of people with criminal intent to be thrown at Poland. But then, since its poor Russia/Belarus doing it, it's okay according to the holistic crowd here. Plus, neither Russia nor Belarus are actual transit countries like Turkey would be, since both regimes have gone out of their way to bring these refugees in their territory.
 

Marek_Gutkowski

Well-known member
Author
Is it an oxymoron? I was simply agreeing with the known fact that in this region, the actions of Belarus and Russia are justified, cunning and practical while the actions of EU countries are awful, dictatorial and hurting everyone.

Edit: sorry, I forgot to add "holistic" to Belarus' and Russia's moves. Important thing, that, holistic.
It is an oxymoron. You do not open something that is was open. Something around 3 million people have traveled through our territory from 2014 to 2020. Some of them most of them said the rest went on further. Germany mostly. Those people were not a problem. But the people that feed Afghanistan after the US withdrawl somehow are.
As for the above.
The EU at this point is the only force of good in sight.
The problem is not the EU.
The problem is the people, that a civilized person's dictionary has no words insulting enough to describe, in the government that are the most openly malicious bunch we had since 1938.
Only the government of 1772 tops them in how bad they are.

As for what Russian and the Belarusian government are doing at the moment.
I have seen an epilepsy attack more organized than what they are doing.
Justified? you can justify anything, so I guess.
Cunning? It is not even reactionary. I don't know how they are anything other than reprehensible.
Practical? Well dumping your problem on someone else, touches on some of the definitions of practical. But I would use expedient in this case.

"Holistic" I never understood the current use of the word as it is being attached to Russian actions.
I guess someone said something like that, and it was so stupid people make fun of it. Even dumber people are attempting to defend it.
Russian actions are inertia driven and reactionary. Belarusian actions are just inertia driven.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
"Holistic" I never understood the current use of the word as it is being attached to Russian actions.
I guess someone said something like that, and it was so stupid people make fun of it. Even dumber people are attempting to defend it.
Check @<Reaper>666's many, many posts explaining the genius of the Soviet war of aggression against Ukraine. He has been unsuccessfully trying to hide his attempts to present utter incompetence as military genius by writing nonsensical walls of texts using "holistic" as a magical word. Attacking a defended position with undersuppllied and disorganized forces while lacking the element of surprise on the shittiest terrain imaginable is his vision of holistic warfare, if you look at his posts.
As for what Russian and the Belarusian government are doing at the moment.
I have seen an epilepsy attack more organized than what they are doing.
Justified? you can justify anything, so I guess.
Cunning? It is not even reactionary. I don't know how they are anything other than reprehensible.
Practical? Well dumping your problem on someone else, touches on some of the definitions of practical. But I would use expedient in this case.
On that we agree. It's simply that this thread, until two months ago, was quite infamous for defending everything the Soviets were doing at the time and presenting their claims as gospel.
The EU at this point is the only force of good in sight.
The problem is not the EU.
The problem is the people, that a civilized person's dictionary has no words insulting enough to describe, in the government that are the most openly malicious bunch we had since 1938.
Only the government of 1772 tops them in how bad they are.
Le Shrug. They're assholes, probably, but it's you guys' job to get rid of them.
 

Marek_Gutkowski

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Author
Le Shrug. They're assholes, probably, but it's you guys' job to get rid of them.
I know. We managed to kick them out twice. They keep coming back.
But this time around the joyful disregard of the letter of the law they are displaying is so egregious it boggles the mind they are not getting the pushback they deserve.
All the action PiS made are blatantly totalitarian socialist but they only pay lip service to the socialist part. Censorship of the press should have people in the streets with sicles.
I hope it would have happened if not for the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Then again I know how the "Strajk Kobiet" pro-abortion demonstrations ended up.
The opposition in my country has no representation.

This one.
oh.

It is actually not about the thing we are talking about.
It happened before.
And yes, the stated policy is xenophobic towards Muslims.
So xenophobic in fact that 5000 refugees at the Polish-Belarusian border triggered the most hateful thing my country did since invading Czechoslovakia together with Nazi Germany in 1938.
 
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Scottty

Well-known member
Quite a bit worse in the case of Belarus/Russia since they are actually hostile countries regularly performing acts of terrorism, assassination and actual piracy against our countries, therefore it is highly likely they would maximize the presence of people with criminal intent to be thrown at Poland. But then, since its poor Russia/Belarus doing it, it's okay according to the holistic crowd here. Plus, neither Russia nor Belarus are actual transit countries like Turkey would be, since both regimes have gone out of their way to bring these refugees in their territory.

Citation required about that, along with an explanation of what you mean.
How does a landlocked country like Belarus do "actual piracy"? Where do their privateer ships operate from?


The problem is the people, that a civilized person's dictionary has no words insulting enough to describe, in the government that are the most openly malicious bunch we had since 1938.
Only the government of 1772 tops them in how bad they are.

Any institution is only as good as the people running it. Doesn't matter what good laws you have if the people in charge can ignore them with impunity.

"Holistic" I never understood the current use of the word as it is being attached to Russian actions.

Does anyone? Where does that come from anyway?

I'll take a flying guess that the idea is for the war effort to exhaust Ukraine economically. Back in the days, a large proportion of the population had to be working to grow food. Force a kingdom to keep too much of its manpower doing military duty, and you threaten it with famine.
Doesn't work too well with Uncle Sam the logistics god in the picture.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
How does a landlocked country like Belarus do "actual piracy"? Where do their privateer ships operate from?
Air piracy. They sent fighter jets intercept a civilian airliner that was carrying passengers between two other countries, forced it to land and kidnapped some of the passengers for "political crimes".

 

Scottty

Well-known member
Air piracy. They sent fighter jets intercept a civilian airliner that was carrying passengers between two other countries, forced it to land and kidnapped some of the passengers for "political crimes".


That's a new one.

And now I can't get the image of Lukashenko leaning out of an aircraft cockpit while wearing an eyepatch and saying "Arrrrr!" out of my mind...
 

Arius

Well-known member
It made us break dozen of laws both internal and international. Suppressed the press and free speech. Institute martial law. And caused preventable loss of life.
But is all good. The ruling party has already dismantled the independent court system. No one is going to prosecute them.
Uh, the ECHR and CJEU say "hello".

There's been several judgements against Poland recently. It's not going to stop and they can very much be a pain in the arse.

When the judgements will Keep pilling up, sanctions and infractions,... It'll all help to put some light on this government. It will help local opposition to grow a pair, which will in turn incite the Commission to act more strongly. Although, it's not going to happen overnight, at the end of the day, we'll win.


Oh, and let's not forget that right now the EU Commission is done with the bullshit. They're not going to tolerate flagrant violations of EU rules for long. Moves are already being made.
 
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Scottty

Well-known member
Uh, the ECHR and CJEU say "hello".

There's been several judgements against Poland recently. It's not going to stop and they can very much be a pain in the arse.

When the judgements will Keep pilling up, sanctions and infractions,... It'll all help to put some light on this government. It will help local opposition to grow a pair, which will in turn incite the Commission to act more strongly. Although, it's not going to happen overnight, at the end of the day, we'll win.


Oh, and let's not forget that right now the EU Commission is done with the bullshit. They're not going to tolerate flagrant violations of EU rules for long. Moves are already being made.

What are they picking on Poland for and is it really a good time for it?
 

Marek_Gutkowski

Well-known member
Author
What are they picking on Poland for and is it really a good time for it?
For breaking Poland's own constitution. For breaking EU agreements. For breaking international laws, including the Geneva Convention.
Also yes it is a good time for it.
It is the only time for it. You do not prosecute wrongdoings when it is convenient.
The cornerstone of the justice system principle is you do not get when you uphold the law.

Uh, the ECHR and CJEU say "hello".
I am aware. The problem is the PiS leadership answer is responding with anti-EU rhetoric while not even addressing the reasons why they are being censored.
I said they are not getting the pushback that is called for. Not that there is no pushback at all.
There should be a vote of no confidence. They have the majority so that is a nonstart.
The legal system in our country can lift the immunity from prosecution of any government member.
No judge will do that now because they already replaced the supreme court members with their own people.


Any institution is only as good as the people running it. Doesn't matter what good laws you have if the people in charge can ignore them with impunity.
I missed that post before.

It is not about an institution. It is about dismantling the checks and balance system that keeps the country running.
PiS more or less engineered a situation where they can do whatever they damn well like to.
So it is not about people in charge ignoring the law. It is about the people that nominally should keep them honest not doing their job.
 
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Arius

Well-known member
For breaking Poland's own constitution. For breaking EU agreements. For breaking international laws, including the Geneva Convention.
Also yes it is a good time for it.
It is the only time for it. You do not prosecute wrongdoings when it is convenient.
The cornerstone of the justice system principle is you do not get when you uphold the law.


I am aware. The problem is the PiS leadership answer is responding with anti-EU rhetoric while not even addressing the reasons why they are being censored.
I said they are not getting the pushback that is called for. Not that there is no pushback at all.
There should be a vote of no confidence. They have the majority so that is a nonstart.
The legal system in our country can lift the immunity from prosecution of any government member.
No judge will do that now because they already replaced the supreme court members with their own people.



I missed that post before.

It is not about an institution. It is about dismantling the checks and balance system that keeps the country running.
PiS more or less engineered a situation where they can do whatever they damn well like to.
So it is not about people in charge ignoring the law. It is about the people that nominally should keep them honest not doing their job.
That battle won't happen in the domestic court. The government has too many leverage for that, you're correct about that.

Luckily, the EU Commission and the CJEU aren't bound by the local government or courts, and their baton has a farther reach. This is mainly a political battle, one that will and is happening on the EU scene for which the Polish government doesn't have as many leverage as it thinks. The unknown variable is what will civil society do to oppose the government. Poland is a member of the EU, it HAS to comply with treaty rules. And the Commission is the guardian of EU treaties, so... It's going to hurt.

Furthermore, sadly for the government, Merkel isn't in the political landscape now. Her temperance towards Hungary and Poland is gone. The ones left (Macron, Draghi,...) aren't as patient as Merkel. Quite the opposite.

Now, it's a matter of time and putting a lot of pressure on the government.
 
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Scottty

Well-known member
From the SV thread; some Russian SAM apparently managed to blow itself up.



At this point I suspect I could beat a Russian soldier in a bar fight by challenging them to a game of darts, and walking away once they fall over from self inflicted wounds.


I didn't know a SAM could make a U-turn like that...

I'll take a flying guess that the missile somehow locked onto the radar from the vehicle that spots and assigns the targets. Watch closely and you'll see it didn't go back to the exact same spot it launched from.

Or maybe its steering mechanism had been serviced according to Russian standards of competence...
 
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