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Eastern Europe News

Aetherius

Well-known member
Author
Ok, i´ve just heard the following news:

1. It seems Germany is giving it´s go to Poland to deliver the Leo 2 to Ukraine. They want to check it quickly and give it a go.

2. The US also seemingly wants to deliver Tanks to Ukrain. The M1 Abrams. How many is not known.

3. Also, now that the US seemingly want to deliver those Tanks, there are now talks that Berlin will also send (about 14) Tanks (Leo 2A6) from stocks of the Bundeswehr.
Edit: Today, the news confirms that Berlin will deliver the tanks.


Article translated via DeepL:
Germany will supply Ukraine with Leopard 2 main battle tanks after all. As ntv has learned from government circles, a Leopard 2 A6 company is to be handed over to the Ukrainian army.

After days of waiting, Chancellor Olaf Scholz has now decided to deliver battle tanks to Ukraine after all. As ntv has learned from government circles, a company of Leopard 2 tanks is to be handed over to the Ukrainian army. A company comprises 14 tanks in the German army.
Earlier, U.S. media had reported that the United States was also ready to deliver its own Abrams main battle tanks. Scholz reportedly made this a condition in a phone call with President Joe Biden. The Leopard 2 A6 is one of the newer variants of its type. The Bundeswehr received the first tank of this type in 2001.

Other European countries also want to supply Ukraine with Leopard 2s, including Poland. The NATO member has already applied to Germany for an export permit. This permission is also expected to be granted, dpa reports. Other European countries are also considering sending the battle tanks to Ukraine. Spain had already suggested this last year. Britain had already announced last week that it would supply 14 Challenger tanks.

Ukraine needs main battle tanks because supplies of Soviet-era models have dried up and its own weapons factories have been destroyed by the Russians. The tanks are to help defend against a possible Russian spring offensive and enable Ukraine to mount counterattacks or offensives on its own. According to information from Kiev, however, the army needs several hundred tanks. Last weekend, "Der Spiegel" had reported that the Bundeswehr had 312 Leopard 2 tanks of various series. The source was an internal Bundeswehr list. However, according to the report, only 212 of these are available.

Rheinmetall could supply 139 tanks
Leopard manufacturer Rheinmetall had announced this Tuesday that it could supply Ukraine with a total of 139 Leopard tanks - 22 of the 2A4 type, which the company itself owns and could repair within a year. In addition, there are 29 more that were actually intended for ring exchanges with other countries, but could be ready for service in three to four months. In addition, 88 Leopard 1 tanks, which are actually obsolete, are still in the yard.

Since last week, pressure had been mounting on the German government to make a decision on the delivery of the Leopard tanks. The new defense minister, Boris Pistorius, had said on ARD television that the decision would be made in the chancellor's office. Many observers had reacted with disappointment after Germany made no statement on the matter at last Friday's meeting of the Ukraine Contact Group in Ramstein. CDU leader Friedrich Merz criticized that the German government's actions had led to a loss of confidence among its allies. CDU foreign policy expert Roderich Kiesewetter had previously said that export permission for other countries would have been the minimum.
The tank issue had led to disagreements between Germany and the USA. According to reports, there had been intensive exchanges on this issue in Ramstein. The Americans had insisted that Germany supply Leopard 2 tanks. This is considered by some to be the best model in the world and is available in large numbers, especially in Europe, where ten countries use it. The US Army would first have to ship its tanks across the Atlantic. If different models were in use, Ukrainian soldiers would also have to be trained on different models and corresponding supply and repair logistics would have to be set up. This would be more costly than if only Leopard tanks were in service.

Scholz had publicly explained his hesitation only by saying that Germany would not go it alone and wanted to avoid becoming a party to the war itself. By "going it alone," however, he apparently meant acting without the Americans, since other European countries were prepared to supply Leopard tanks. This Wednesday, Scholz will make a government statement in the Bundestag.

FDP defense politician Marcus Faber welcomed the decision to ntv.de. "Ukraine urgently needs the tanks to convince the invading forces to go home." Now, he said, the training of Ukrainian crews can "finally" begin. "Consistent and rapid implementation is now crucial and at the same time the most important challenge for the new defense minister," Faber said.

Edit:
In other news, it seems new Bayraktars are coming soon....
I personally wouldn´t be surprised if those are soon been seen over Ukraine.
FFS, this thing looks like a bit like a F-35
 
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Eliar

Well-known member
*Looks at the latest MBT for Ukraine circus.*

You know.

I think Germany is owed an apology.

People keep deriding them for dragging their feet on the Leo issue but when the US finally announces they are gonna totally send Abraams...

They say they will be new constructions and not from the thousands of readily available stocks.

Let me be succinct here.

It is pretty clear I think that the West wants Russia defeated BUT.

If Ukraine wants modern Western MBTs they will have to put their hand deep in their pocket.

Wonder how much of a clown show any sort of modern fighter acquisition will be.
 
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IndyFront

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IndyFront

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Those three makes hardly a difference when compared to the rest of the world/nations.
No, but it's worth not turning a blind eye to. The US should be doing more to get Turkey fully on Ukraine's side since it's a NATO country.
 

folti

Well-known member
Lol, out of those 3, only South Africa is doing the big friend thing, and they are effectively a non-entity. The other two are at worst following their national interests as they perceive it, and would stiff Russia as much as they are annoying the west.

Pretty much the entire article sounds like the US media being annoyed that not everyone is willing to join their posse against Russia.
 

IndyFront

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No, not really. The Sultan is kinda forgetting his place these days and tries to escalate everything to block the entry of much more valuable countries than his to the Alliance.
I don't really see how that is a disagreement with what I said. It seems like Turkey is trying to play both sides against each other, particularly with the Sweden thing. If Sweden and Finland (even just Finland tbh) it would decapitate Russian naval influence to the north. I'm pretty sure Turkey knows this, they don't seem to be operating from a place of ignorance.
 

Kamakura bakufu

Well-known member
Lol, out of those 3, only South Africa is doing the big friend thing, and they are effectively a non-entity. The other two are at worst following their national interests as they perceive it, and would stiff Russia as much as they are annoying the west.

Pretty much the entire article sounds like the US media being annoyed that not everyone is willing to join their posse against Russia.
Many people forget who that South Africa is full of people that in the west called tankies.
 

folti

Well-known member
Many people forget who that South Africa is full of people that in the west called tankies.
Tankies aren't the correct definition, as they are people, who, or whose predecessors have been supported in the past by the Soviet Union and Russia in some struggle or another, while the various excesses of said regimes happened elsewhere, so they weren't affected.

Kinda like how Vietnam has the same attitude, due to Soviet support during it's wars of independence, and as one Vietnamese diplomat or leader put it, "Russia is the only P5 member, who never invaded Vietnam".
 

Marek_Gutkowski

Well-known member
Author
Yes, it is a 2 hours long government hearing. Yes, it is conducted by people that made their life-long careers speaking a lot and saying very little. I still think someone may find an interest in what was being said.



Before I start something I do not intend to start, I like to ask how many Americans do we have here in this thread?
 

Aetherius

Well-known member
Author
Now that the Tanks are basically on the way to Ukraine, the Ukrainian Pres called for western fighters and missiles.....
How long will it takes this time till the west will hand those fighters to Ukraine then ?
Any idea ?
 

folti

Well-known member
Now that the Tanks are basically on the way to Ukraine, the Ukrainian Pres called for western fighters and missiles.....
How long will it takes this time till the west will hand those fighters to Ukraine then ?
Any idea ?
Rumors have been swirling around since at least last September about Ukrainian pilots receiving training in the US on unspecified aircraft, and recently the Ukrainian Air Force's spokesman officially said that they are upgrading infrastructure to receive western aircraft:


So good chance that the first batch of planes and pilots are getting ready ...
 

Aetherius

Well-known member
Author
Hmm, how likely are the chances that the fighters arriving in Ukraine this year ?
I mean, Ukraine has experienced pilots. Yeah, the problem IMHO is that they have experience on russian machines.
But the basics should be more or less the same.

Edit:
Do we know what Machines could be delivered to Ukraine ??
 

Marek_Gutkowski

Well-known member
Author
F-16 only ? No Rafale ? Or Eurofighter ?
There are 500 F-16 parked in a desert, plus various people maybe willing to part with their older stocks.
Second-hand Mirage 2000 is also a possibility if far less likely.

Dassault is working at capacity to deliver planes already on order. So new builds are out unless Armée de l'air is willing to part with any no Rafale.
Eurofighter GmbH would need to get everybody on board with any transfer and that is likely to get anyone who would try an aneurysm. It is not just the airframe.

The Tornado are past their "safe for consumption" date.


Also, this talk about fighters is very much hypothetical. as in I have to see it to believe it.
I think helicopters with guided AT missiles are far more likely and useful in the near future.
 

Marek_Gutkowski

Well-known member
Author
From the ground up maybe. re-training someone already trained to a different model would take less time.
In 1944 Erik Hartmann was given a new wingman. A major that used to fly bombers. The major was shot down on his first sortie. Hartmann remembered it because it was the only wingman he ever lost. Or admitted to losing at any rate. And that was on Bf-109.

Every type requires a collage level education to operate.
Basic radio navigation is a multi-hour course and that is just one panel on the plane. You really need to know them all to fly safely let alone fight.
You can rush it, but by doing that you are compromising the safety of your pilots.
Not to mention that the ground crews need to learn a new plane.


Thinking about it, upgrading Ukrainian airfields to be able to operate NATO aircraft may have more to do with western cargo planes being able to land safely.
 

Eliar

Well-known member
Hmm, how likely are the chances that the fighters arriving in Ukraine this year ?
I mean, Ukraine has experienced pilots. Yeah, the problem IMHO is that they have experience on russian machines.
But the basics should be more or less the same.

Edit:
Do we know what Machines could be delivered to Ukraine ??

Eh there are pretty significant differences between WarPac/Russian aircraft and Western fighters tbh.

Hence why delivery of F-16s to Ukraine is taking so long and will probably take some time still.

And yea F-16s are pretty much the only realistic pick for Ukraine given the sheer numbers of the things floating around and the fact that the things will basically be handouts.
 

folti

Well-known member
In 1944 Erik Hartmann was given a new wingman. A major that used to fly bombers. The major was shot down on his first sortie. Hartmann remembered it because it was the only wingman he ever lost. Or admitted to losing at any rate. And that was on Bf-109.

Every type requires a collage level education to operate.
Basic radio navigation is a multi-hour course and that is just one panel on the plane. You really need to know them all to fly safely let alone fight.
You can rush it, but by doing that you are compromising the safety of your pilots.
Not to mention that the ground crews need to learn a new plane.


Thinking about it, upgrading Ukrainian airfields to be able to operate NATO aircraft may have more to do with western cargo planes being able to land safely.
I'm not sure the experiences of the Luftwaffe are a credible example. They are well known for having rather botched pipelines for training, and retraining.

Meanwhile US Congress allocated funds to train Ukrainian pilots back in last June or July, and the rumors started last September. Any training class is already at least 4-6 months in, which might be already good enough, since modern training regimens are more refined and effective than the old ones. Say unlike WW2, and modern Russia, the western militaries have access to more simulators to get basic training, and unlearn reflexes from the old planes the pilots flew, even before they get to the air under the guidance of a trainer.
 
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