Lert's Talk About Cars (other people can join the discussion, I suppose)

[Lerticus]

Not enough general discussion threads around here, so I will make one for one of my hobbies. Vehicles.

Cars, trucks, vans, motorcycles (I guess). Post your opinions, questions, or trivia here for all things that go vroom (or coil whine noises, if that's your kink).

To begin, a random topic: What is a shooting brake (not "break", the spelling of which should be punished with flogging), and how does it differ from the station wagon?

Primer: What Is A Shooting Brake?

In a class of its own.

hiconsumption.com

Car terminology can be a tricky thing to navigate, even for those of us who are around it a lot. And sometimes it’s not very clear even if you understand that there is a difference – AWD versus 4WD, anyone? Of course, there are also some terms that people just generally take for granted and don’t give much consideration. Like, for example, that here in the States we call small 4-door cars with a trunk ‘sedans,’ whereas they’re called ‘saloons’ in England and other parts of the world. And while we’d love to clear everything up, there’s one term we’d like to focus on specifically here.

That term is, of course, ‘shooting brake.’ If you’ve spent any time in the car world – obsessed collectors and casual fans alike – there’s a pretty good chance you’ve seen it at some time or another. But, unless you took the time out of your day to hunt down the meaning, origin, or other examples; you likely just looked right past it. Well, believe it or not, the term ‘shooting brake’ actually has some interesting history behind it. And that’s what we’re here to illuminate today: what, exactly, is a shooting brake? From its origins, to its evolution, and to contemporary examples, we’ve mapped it all out in the following article.

I must disagree on one crucial piece of information however. A McDonald's cheeseburger and a Wendy's Baconator are nothing alike.

 

[Jakarta]

I want to know what it's like to drive a GAZ or a Lada or whatever cars produced in the Soviet Union. Fully honest.

If not for it's reliability, then at least for it's experience, wanna see if the car is really worth waiting 20-30 years to drive around.

 

[t-dugong]

I want to know what it's like to drive a GAZ or a Lada or whatever cars produced in the Soviet Union. Fully honest.

If not for it's reliability, then at least for it's experience, wanna see if the car is really worth waiting 20-30 years to drive around.

Not very comfortable but easy to repair if it does break down, if those Youtube car reviewers are correct.

 

[Lerticus]

I want to know what it's like to drive a GAZ or a Lada or whatever cars produced in the Soviet Union. Fully honest.

If not for it's reliability, then at least for it's experience, wanna see if the car is really worth waiting 20-30 years to drive around.

OK, so this comedy-style video is not actually incorrect.


Yes, it is not fast. You do not want to go fast, that is dangerous. You also will have a not-great time stopping, so stay away from long downhill stretches.

But is it reliable? Oh, yes. Which does not mean that it cannot, or will not, break down. But repairs are simple and cheap. Keep a small toolkit with some common-sized wrenches and such, and you are golden.

The fun aspect is where the car shines, at least for me. It is made as a basic commuter car, so it is not fast, but no power steering and manual transmission make you feel fully connected to the car and to the road.

---

The two closest comparisons I can think of are to the VW Beetle, and to WWII jeeps.

The jeep comparison (small "J", since it used to be a commonplace term for similarly styled "GP" general purpose vehicles made by many manufacturers) is firstly appropriate because that is a large part of Soviet car DNA.

No, the 'Murican propaganda is (obviously) not right, and they did not win the war by themselves, or by the lend lease program. They shortened the path to the war's inevitable conclusion, but that is a far different thing.

However, those jeeps were a starting point for much of the Soviet automotive industry. The USSR, in addition to receiving vehicles, gained the ability to make more of the same sort. Far from identical, but the underlying mechanics were very similar. The advantages were naturally the ability to drive away from a depot with a mechanics shop without a lot of breakdowns, and being simple to repair.

So, after the war, the US went back to making themselves land whales to drive around. These were far from reliable vehicles, and it is the reason why for decades every small town of a hundred people or so had a mechanic shop, many of them attached to gas stations. Without reliability, they instead valued the ability to get repairs almost everywhere. This is why that industry is dying today, since vehicles are getting both more advanced than a home-grown kid with a set of wrenches can provide, and because the least reliable cars are still far less likely to break down than the ones of a few decades ago.

Meanwhile, the USSR for the most part used the same reliable technology found in those military vehicle in their civilian vehicles. You didn't have thousands of service bays to fix your car, you fixed it yourself. But you probably didn't have to do that too often, or it was just a quick, common, repair that you got used to doing. Instead of pursuing more horsepower and fancy gadgetry and such, it has mostly been easier to stay slower and more reliable. When they wanted new models they just bought some tooling/ specifications from a company with a similarly rugged and repairable underpinnings.

Which is where that comparison to the Beetle comes into play. It could break down, but it was not so often as contemporary vehicles, and most owners could fix it themselves. I have listened to thousands of stories of people who though that the engine was running a bit rough, so they pulled it out and rebuilt it on the dining room table as a weekend project, then had it back in and ready to go for the beginning of the workweek. They also were not meant to go very fast, but you can feel the road better, which leads to fun.

---

So, do you want to drive an old farm truck/Beetle? That is what you likely will be getting. Some people will never get it, but it is a simple joy that you find in being self-sufficient with repairs, and in feeling like the car is more a part of yourself (or close family) than yet another appliance that cars have become over the years.

That is the real deciding factor, how you view your vehicles, much more than a fancy paint job or leather interior with 312 speakers on your audio system. If you want a friend that is mostly reliable, who tries real hard even though they are often not the most capable, and who can be helped back on their feet with some kind words and the smack of a mallet, then these cars are that kind of friend.

EDIT: Bonus video.

 

[Eliar]

If I remember correctly, since Jugoslavian ladas were a big thing here for a long time, they were hardy. tough but woe to those caught in one when it rained

 

[Jakarta]

Snip

This is fascinating, their philosophy fascinates me.

Tehnically, I can get a Toyota Land Cruiser and get the best of both worlds, reliability and comfort. But now I want to drive a Soviet Made car even more.

 

[Rubick]

However, those jeeps were a starting point for much of the Soviet automotive industry.

In what way ?

What hampered Soviet civilian automobile industry is that without the politburo say so it was hard to create a new model of car. let alone a range of cars especially when blank sheet design was required. Add to that the infernal Gosplan and various other agencies. Civilian automobile industry had it's knee's capped and it's arms broken. much from the beginning to the end.

 

[Wakko]

I want to know what it's like to drive a GAZ or a Lada or whatever cars produced in the Soviet Union. Fully honest.

I've driven a Lada (don't remember the actual type, there were many over the years and several of them were imported into CSSR). First of all, they were small. All cars made in the Eastern Block and meant for mere mortals were small. You had to be a Party animal or a policeman to get to drive something larger. Ladas were popular around here because they had more powerful engines than our Skodas, and they were faster. That was why our police used them a lot. For the time and place they were pretty OK, but hard to come by, and expensive (but heck, color TVs and fridges were expensive too). And some of them are still working today, you can still see them on the road from time to time - and not some pimped-up, pampered garage ladies but visibly old, tired, rusty, yet still working veterans.
If I had a choice, I'd want to try a Volga (GAZ-24). Compared to the common cars, it was a beast, also was larger and more comfy, but was reserved for policemen, taxis, high-ranking factory managers, etc.

 

[Rubick]

If I had a choice, I'd want to try a Volga (GAZ-24). Compared to the common cars, it was a beast, also was larger and more comfy, but was reserved for policemen, taxis, high-ranking factory managers, etc.

The one I tried had body roll that almost rivaled early 70's god-awful Lincoln Conti. And the way you sit. your not actually quite aligned to the pedals or the steering wheel. It's not as bad as in some Italian cars I tried.* And frankly fit and finish and interior design felt like something out of BMC stable. Which granted to me isn't a good thing. Also felt very underpowered but that could be on account of the engine loosing quite a bit of power due to mileage.


* Being in Alfa and BMW/Alpina motor club with mostly old geezers you get to drive some rarities on occasion.

 

[Jakarta]

Speaking of American Cars.

I wish I can like, have a green card or something, there are some cars in the US that I just WANT to try out, at least ride it out for a day or something. I mean, yeah, admittedly, older American cars can be maintenance hogs, still, I want to try them out.

One example of a car I really want to try out but probably don't wanna own.

Mach 1 Mustang. 1969 model.

Something about that car oozes fun for me. And importing them to Indonesia isn't what I would call a sound plan by any standard. Well, one person can dream.

 

[Lerticus]

* Being in Alfa and BMW/Alpina motor club with mostly old geezers you get to drive some rarities on occasion.

Yes. We need to have backup vehicles, for when the garage kings and queens are not available. Same with Jaaaaags and Land Rovers.

Which could lead to another rant, honestly. Some manufacturers are admittedly high maintenance, but the majority are relatively the same in needing routine maintenance and driving like a normal human being. Some particular models have a host of issues, but rarely does it become something that affected the entire brand.

Can't say how many time I have heard "[BRAND] sucks! I have a a bad story to yell about!", only to find out that they can't drive worth shit and all their vehicles are some sort of fucked up from their bad habits.

 

[Rubick]

Yes. We need to have backup vehicles, for when the garage kings and queens are not available. Same with Jaaaaags and Land Rovers.

Which could lead to another rant, honestly. Some manufacturers are admittedly high maintenance, but the majority are relatively the same in needing routine maintenance and driving like a normal human being. Some particular models have a host of issues, but rarely does it become something that affected the entire brand.

Can't say how many time I have heard "[BRAND] sucks! I have a a bad story to yell about!", only to find out that they can't drive worth shit and all their vehicles are some sort of fucked up from their bad habits.

Jag's deserved their lousy reputation though even up until this day. Rovers I don't know in general. Besides the P7 which i would like to own one day. But anything post 60's automotive at least from Britain is generally regarded as ill designed or ill manufactured garbage for the most part.



The Italians however don't deserve their reputation for the most part. Yes, Italian cars up until the mid 70's or so. Tended to (but not always) have thinner body metal then any other euro brand or Merican brand cars. So rust,.. which was an issues for all car brands was especially for some of the Italian brands and their models.



The shielding also tended to be much thinner so wore out much quicker. Also the wiring in Italian cars tends to run in the oddest places and not the best places..


But otherwise besides the exotics. Especially Ferrari's. Which I can speak from personal record since i did look into acquiring a Ferrari in 2006 when the likes of Ferrari 208, 308, Mondial and even Testarossa were still cheap to buy before the generally hike up in prices for classic cars (especially Ferrari's) The build quality of said Ferrari's and the material used was frankly substandard. And top it all off. They were far from what one would call well sorted drivers cars.

Otherwise Italian cars we're fairly reliable especially pre 70's.


FIAT only got their reputation post war due to dumb Americans although to be honest end of the 60's FIAT did try to live up to that reputation. Granted most of their models by mid lifetime were generally sorted out and decently reliable.

Lancia post war, pre FIAT take over built some of the best goddamn cars in terms of fit and finish and quality material to match. It made Merc look like Lada's.. They were also very technically sophisticated cars sometimes just for the sake of it. A prop rod to hold the bonnet up ? Forget about it! Auralia and Appia has an complex mechanism to do so. Interior lightning that's simple and is meant to be operated by a single button ? Not on a bloody Lancia! Both the driver and and the front passenger has their own interior light with options.

Then there is Alfa Romeo, Only really got bad reputation due to AlfaSud and it's rust issues thank to setting up production in Italian version of Ireland. That and wire shielding plagued Alfa's up until now even. (Bar the 159). Otherwise Alfa's unreliability are exaggerated as hell.

 

[Rubick]

New trailer for Grand Tour special/episode

 

[Inquisitor Solarion]

Ah our favorite bunch of Brits who are utterly unapologetically stereotypical.

 

[Rubick]

And utterly inaccurate. Especially for people that claim to be Lancia fans.

But anyway I hope it won't be to scripted. The last 3 episodes of season 3 were ace especially the Mongolia Special. Unfortunately they went back to the same habits in season 4 I hope this episode will be better.

 

[Rubick]

Having been helping in finishing restoring a FIAT 130. and have come back from test driving it for over 1100 km's with one 15 minute stop. I said it once (on SB) and i'll say it again. Modern car seats are utter rubbish. I don't know what fucking study Ze germans did (or was it the Swede's. )did. Car seats being firm as a rock isn't comfort or at all good for your back. You can claim partially that it's due to being a downside for providing better support.. But that's frankly horseshit as the FIAT 130 provides both. I can barely do 3 to 2 hours in modern car seats with some after 3 minutes I wanna get out.

This is one of those moments when one wishes he lived in a alternative universe where Ze french car manufacturers became the predominant dogs. As those guys knew how to do comfort and in peugeot case also handling.


But speaking of FIAT. I'm honestly kinda puzzled how once upon a time the biggest car manufacturers in Europe and one of the most dominant and influential once. With a extensive car range basicly now only has one model (FIAT 500) that's ancient.

But hey merging with Chrysler a company that has been on it's death bed most of the decades of it's existence up till now. Should not suprise me how bad things must be.


Anyway

Honda reveals it's new future EV lineup

And already folks are saying they look like Tesla's "it totally wasn't based on a 4 year old childs car drawing" truck. Nevrmind simillateries are but few. Or this is designded by actual car designers

 

[<Reaper>666]

Having been helping in finishing restoring a FIAT 130. and have come back from test driving it for over 1100 km's with one 15 minute stop. I said it once (on SB) and i'll say it again. Modern car seats are utter rubbish. I don't know what fucking study Ze germans did (or was it the Swede's. )did. Car seats being firm as a rock isn't comfort or at all good for your back. You can claim partially that it's due to being a downside for providing better support.. But that's frankly horseshit as the FIAT 130 provides both. I can barely do 3 to 2 hours in modern car seats with some after 3 minutes I wanna get out.

This is one of those moments when one wishes he lived in a alternative universe where Ze french car manufacturers became the predominant dogs. As those guys knew how to do comfort and in peugeot case also handling.


But speaking of FIAT. I'm honestly kinda puzzled how once upon a time the biggest car manufacturers in Europe and one of the most dominant and influential once. With a extensive car range basicly now only has one model (FIAT 500) that's ancient.

But hey merging with Chrysler a company that has been on it's death bed most of the decades of it's existence up till now. Should not suprise me how bad things must be.


Anyway

Honda reveals it's new future EV lineup

And already folks are saying they look like Tesla's "it totally wasn't based on a 4 year old childs car drawing" truck. Nevrmind simillateries are but few. Or this is designded by actual car designers

Nice looking.
But I still prefer public transport - much more cheaper plus my work does not need a private car.

 

[Inspector Hammer]

Honda reveals it's new future EV lineup

And already folks are saying they look like Tesla's "it totally wasn't based on a 4 year old childs car drawing" truck. Nevrmind simillateries are but few. Or this is designded by actual car designers

There's really only one similarity between those and the Cybertruck, and that's that they look pretty much the same. The lights, the wheels, the angularity, the color scheme, all of it just looks like they took the Cybertrucks design and evolved it slightly, with tweaks to make it work as a crossover, a sedan and uh, a car that I'm not sure if it's a bigger sedan or a smaller crossover.

I think they look fucking awesome, though, I love that cyberpunk aesthetic and hope they come to market with that look intact (although what I want is irrelevant in this case: I'm not going to be in the market for an electric vehicle for quite some time).

 

[Inquisitor Solarion]

I honestly thought it looked a bit like the newer model Prius Primes.

 

[Lerticus]

But hey merging with Chrysler a company that has been on it's death bed most of the decades of it's existence up till now. Should not suprise me how bad things must be.

It is the weirdest thing to see. Mostly because of how it has, despite all odd and common sense, worked.

Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) shouldn't have worked. Most marques are under-represented. I mean, Lancia struggles along with selling only a single model for the better part of a decade. But the Chrysler side has really helped out the finances, with Jeep globally and Ram in the US making mad money (OK, old Dodge platforms continue to bring in Hemi money too). So every year they were profitable to the tune of a few billion Euro.

Now they are merged with PSA Group, and called... Stellantis. Dumb fucking name, everyone says so, but OK. Now there are even more brands, many of whom also need refreshed product.

Except it has been less than a year with the new company, but it looks like it just might continue to show good profits. They just are showing Italian-level planning that results in every new vehicle getting bogged down in development hell, with only the most profitable brands continuing to get new models while everyone else splits the R&D budget amongst themselves.

One would think that at the very least there would be some pressure to rework some of the Peugeot and Citroen models into the US market (the largest ones, since the US kind of hates small cars). But in the last few months the number of products getting released has been * checks notes* a three row Jeep Grand Cherokee, the Jeep Wagoneer, and the Jeep Grand Wagoneer.

And you know what? They are probably going to stay the course, have a slow release schedule, offer only a few older models... and continue to be profitable. Because things don't have to make any sense in the automotive world.

EDIT:
Also have to say that it is wrong that Chrysler has been nearly-bankrupt for most of its existence. In 1998 Daimler-Benz came in and formed a "merger of equals" with Chrysler. At that time Chrysler had billions of dollars in reserve and a lot of strong selling vehicles.

It was nowhere near equal. Daimler came in and demanded that everything in the Chrysler portfolio be cheapened to the point of being useless junk. Anything upmarket was cancelled or deliberately made inferior so that it could not compete with Daimler products. The money in the bank all got pissed away, Daimler stole all sorts of intellectual property, and then they sold off Chrysler to a vulture fund that drove the company somehow even cheaper to the brink of bankruptcy. A major economic crash came around and the bankruptcy came, but then Fiat bought them out for cheap (some government loans that were actually repaid far ahead of schedule, so whatever).

Right up until the late 90's Chrysler had been doing well. The Daimler deal was supposed to be a sharing of technology and melding of distribution to make things more efficient for all parties. Turns out that ze Germans were just there to do some major fucking without lube. Stellantis still needs to be cautious with every step, so they can't move as quickly as other brands, but FCA found a way to turn a reliable profit, and it will probably continue to do so. Much of that will continue to be upon the backs of the Chrysler brands which still make a lot of money now that they do not carry a stinking Daimler-Benz albatross around their necks.

None of which has to do with seats, but that is just the industry globe-wide. Can't blame any one company for not understanding that people come in many shapes and sizes.

 

[t-dugong]

Still 80s to 90s Toyota for me for reliability/comfort/ease of maintainance trifecta, with Honda coming second.

Even to this day, Toyota may be boring cars but they will always be reliable. Not to mention awash in spare parts. The bloody things are probably breeding in the warehouses where Toyota are storing them.

 

[Rubick]

Marek's dream car I think....

Also have to say that it is wrong that Chrysler has been nearly-bankrupt for most of its existence. In 1998 Daimler-Benz came in and formed a "merger of equals" with Chrysler. At that time Chrysler had billions of dollars in reserve and a lot of strong selling vehicles.


Right up until the late 90's Chrysler had been doing well.

I was under impression in the early 90's they started to bleed money again. due to bad leadership. To many brands with subpar offerings and presided ghetto value thanks to the K-car and rest of platforms based on it prior years

 

[Marek_Gutkowski]

Marek's dream car I think....

No, it isn't. I do like it though. But it isn't even my favorite from that class and time frame. Fiat 130 is.
I only said that between a Lada 2106 and a Gaz 24 the Gaz is far roomier, therefore superior in that regard. And I only said is to illustrate why the Akula(Typhoon SSBN) is more luxurious than other subs because there is more room per crewman in it.
If I had the money, I would still prefer a Zil.


But that is not what I came to this thread to talk about.


I have a distinct impression that General Motors is on life support. And I am not talking about them going bankrupt and having the US Gov bail them out.
They had a very good position on the global market with Opel making cars for everybody and Chevy offering the land yachts for the US and Australia.
But they sold Opel, and with that, the only factory they have that is making global market cars is the former Daewoo, now under the Chevrolet brand.
Right now the competition from Ford, Kia, PSA, Japanese, and ze germans basically have free reign.

To make matters worse, when GM sold Opel the brand was operating at a loss for years. Peugeot shows up, they are making a profit within a year. Now that Fiat sold itself in a marriage of convenience to the French. They are a power to rival ze Germans on the European market.
I am happy for them. At the end of the day FIAT is my favorite car brand. I like Lada and FSO, but those are based on Fiats. I expect good things to come from Fiat under the banner of Stellantis.

Back to GM.
For the life of me, I still don't know why they fail time and time again to design a general market automobile that is competitive with what the competition is offering.
Their larger cars were admittedly inferior Toyotas and Audis. Only the lower price range kept them going, Fords were still superior.
Their smaller cars, VW and Peugeot could tap dance around them and cheap little Fiats always drove better.

Are the GM top people sniffing glue licking windows and shoving crayons up their ass, when they should me making informed decisions?
The whole company is a meme at this point.

 

[Rubick]

Nah, at the height of Opel. That is 60's up to the early 90. Opel was never a world brand. GM made sure of that by not letting it into US market and to a degree Asia, Latin America and Commonwealth. One could certainly argue there was Vauxhall, Holden, Ranger, Saturn, Chevy and Buick which sold rebadged Opels.
Though again that would not be entire correct. Vauxhall, Holden, only really started to be rebadged face lifted and or reengineered Opel's in the mid 70's's early 80's.
Ranger though was pretty much a rebadged Opel with a slight facelift (prior to that a Vauxhall,) Saturn, Chevy and Buick came to have rebadged slightly facelifted Opel's in their lineup only since the 90's and 2000's. Granted Buick did sell Opel kadett B in US market with a Buick emblem instead of Opel


And yeah I agree. GM's handling of Opel especially in Opel's hayday is sheer idiotic. And GM basicly shot themselves in the foot. I also never understood why GM had to have so many car brands under one roof all basicly competing with themselves. Might @Lerticus care to enlighten us on that ?


As far as Ford vs GM. My older brother did collect old American cars. I can tell you that NA Fords are rubbish at least the 50's and early 70's. As we're the Lincolns. for the most parts. Chrysler and it's brands i have no idea. He only had a 60's Valiant and a imperial neither of which drove and needed to be restored.

EU Ford i have drove some and helped to restore some. I'm not impressed with 50's and 60's EU fords. They are a notch better then BMC product maybe in reliability but are still pretty shitty engineered thought-out cars with cheapness all over them. I'd say they started only making good cars with Granada, 80's escort and kind of Sierra and Fiesta. Since neither first gen offerings were all that great compared to what was out there at that time..

 

[Marek_Gutkowski]

My point was that with selling Opel, GM just got rid of the design biuro that made the shall we say sane-sized cars.
It was Opel that designed the cars that other GM brands were based on.
SAAB 9-5 was a longer wheel-base Insignia. The second-gen 900 is a Vectra.
Daewoo was all Opels. Nexia was the Kadett, Espero the Ascona, Lanos is Astra, Nubira is Vectra. Matiz, I think that one currently called Chevy Spark is still based on the Tico and that thing is a Suzuki Alto.

Opel designed the lion's share of GM brands sold outside the US.

As for the earlier cars.
Everything out of 50's and 60's cannot comment on. Last gen Kadett was nice I guess. And the first gen Kadett ended up becoming the first Moskvicz.

But if you ask me Ford vs GM. Ford won. Ford is still in the game, it didn't go bankrupt and still has a whole line of cars. GM has only South American and China factories still running outside the US. And those are quite embarrassing, to be honest.
If the best they could do was the Aveo, then I have little hope for the brand's future.