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US Politics Minneapolis council members say they will "end" police department after Floyd death

definitelyameatbag

Active member

A link to confirm the vote has passed


I am, in a very positive way, astonished. It's been two weeks since George Floyd was murdered, and when I first heard about it I felt from the bottom of my heart that it was just going to fizzle into nothing like every murder that came before. I never would have bet that we would be seeing a major American city embark on an experiment of full-on police abolition.
 

Eliar

Well-known member
The american policing culture is deeply flawed and perverse.

A product of decades of unaccountability and glorification of the Dirty Harry and Lethal Weapon kind of *policing*.

I don't believe abolishing police is realistic or possible in the US Megacities but alternative solutions may be possible in the far sparcely populated interior.
 

definitelyameatbag

Active member
I don't believe abolishing police is realistic or possible in the US Megacities but alternative solutions may be possible in the far sparcely populated interior.
I'm inclined to think the opposite. Not only do rural areas not possess the political will to attempt it (rural areas lean conservative and thus staunchly pro-cop, even after all of this), but urban areas have a higher density of tax revenue: Building up the alternative system to replace the police department takes money, after all.
 

Mr Wumbo

Well-known member
Soooo Minneapolis Committee of Public Safety? :p

Anyway the new system is likely going to be a police force but with different name. Which is not a bad thing as the problem is not with the concept of policing itself but rather with how it becomes corrupt with no oversight and accountability. Rebuilding a the police from the ground up with an actual system of check and balance is a good direction to take.
 

Durabys

A Cheshire Exile
Soooo Minneapolis Committee of Public Safety? :p

Anyway the new system is likely going to be a police force but with different name. Which is not a bad thing as the problem is not with the concept of policing itself but rather with how it becomes corrupt with no oversight and accountability. Rebuilding a the police from the ground up with an actual system of check and balance is a good direction to take.
No. From what I heard they plan to make a very very very small SWAT team-like group for aggressive negotiations operations (gang warfare, armed bank heists, and so on), armed and armored like current day police with the same vehicular equipment like now. Another slightly bigger group of personnel but equipped only with non-lethal weaponry (they didn't specify what kind) and zero armor probably for dealing with things getting out of control at mass events like football games (both of these above groups will also be a form of 'Militia', drawn from the local populace, trained locally only, and only for whom lived X amount of years in the area). Another group will be negotiators/'situation defusers' who will be un-armed and un-armored and specifically picked and trained to diplomance away less dangerous situations. These three will be separate organizations, each with its own distinct form of training. Also, Police Forensics is getting under the 'Science' Department. Traffic Control is getting under the Traffic Department.
 

Mark Poe

The majestic cock
Writing Champ
They should just privatize the police force by having the existing gangs and mafia become the city's enforcers, and taking a cut of any related profits they generate from their enforcement activities like killing the helpless and taking their shit.

Everyone wins, the city cut costs and increase revenue, the gangs/mafia gets to expand operations, society gets rid of the weak etc. .
 

Eliar

Well-known member
They should just privatize the police force by having the existing gangs and mafia become the city's enforcers, and taking a cut of any related profits they generate from their enforcement activities like killing the helpless and taking their shit.

Everyone wins, the city cut costs and increase revenue, the gangs/mafia gets to expand operations, society gets rid of the weak etc. .
...and change the name to Ankh-Morpork.
 

IndyFront

Ξ⌊:Ξ≪⊕ `∧∀⊥∥'⌊: ∀∃∃∀⌊:⊕⌈≪⌊:⊕Γ.
Author
They should just privatize the police force by having the existing gangs and mafia become the city's enforcers, and taking a cut of any related profits they generate from their enforcement activities like killing the helpless and taking their shit.

Everyone wins, the city cut costs and increase revenue, the gangs/mafia gets to expand operations, society gets rid of the weak etc. .
 

Inquisitor Solarion

Well-known member
They should just privatize the police force by having the existing gangs and mafia become the city's enforcers, and taking a cut of any related profits they generate from their enforcement activities like killing the helpless and taking their shit.

Everyone wins, the city cut costs and increase revenue, the gangs/mafia gets to expand operations, society gets rid of the weak etc. .
I think that kind of happens in Mexico in some parts where the cartels literally rule the roost.
 

IndyFront

Ξ⌊:Ξ≪⊕ `∧∀⊥∥'⌊: ∀∃∃∀⌊:⊕⌈≪⌊:⊕Γ.
Author
I think that kind of happens in Mexico in some parts where the cartels literally rule the roost.
Canada, Cape Verde, Nigeria, Morocco, the United States (American Mafia is still a thing) Black Panthers, Irish Mob... you have the Jongro of Korea and Yakuza of Japan, and the Italians (I'm sure I'm forgetting a LOT)
 

Vorpal

Administrator
Administrator
Maybe it'll turn out for the better in the end, or at least I can hope, but right now everything's getting increasingly fucked.

So this week in Atlanta, one Ryshard Brooks, a black man, was drunk and fell asleep in his car at a Wendy's drive-through. The police was called, and he was administered a sobriety test, which he failed, and was put under arrest for DUI; also at this time, a background check turned out that he was wanted for battery of a child. Probably do to possible consequences of the latter, Mr. Brooks decided to grab an taser-gun and fired it at the officers trying to arrest him. At this point, the one of the officers shot Mr. Brooks, who died at the scene. [vid1] [vid2]

Meanwhile, the district attorney lies about the incident charged the officer with murder and ten other crimes, unilaterally against normal procedure. (The DA is an elected position, and an election is coming up, which probably has the most to do with why, although the DA is also under investigation for embezzlement and sexual harassment, which may have contributed to this decision.) If the racial combination was anything other than a white officer and a black suspect, this wouldn't have even made the news. But instead, we Wendy's burned down and a lot of the police force just plain walk out in protest. Although the mayor says things are under control, Atlanta Police radio has long silences and no responses to 911 calls [11Alive]. It seems that Atlanta cops on social media claim much higher walk-out rates than official statements, but who knows.

Probably, some of the underlying cases for US policing terribleness are that:
— Very high economic inequality. In pretty much every society that's grossly unequal, you get more and more reliance on policing to keep the underclasses in line by force.
— Gun culture, the military-industrial complex and the resulting worship of the military. The police drink that up and further warp it into some weird warrior-killer mindset [HOLY SHIT].
— A veneer of democracy in that a lot of these positions, including sheriffs, DAs, judges, are elected. I say a veneer because in practice, just about no one actually cares about voting on this scale (democracy gets expensive in terms of effort and time of the citizen), so the vast majority of the time, candidates run unopposed, with the actual effect that they make shows of how tough-on-crime they are while primarily protecting the interests of wealthy.
— Of course, also one of the main defund-the-police point that many social programs are cut and the resulting problems are put in the shoulders of the police.
— Well, racism is not irrelevant, and the shadow of Jim Crow is long and also very messed up, but I think it would be by far too reductive alone.
America is kind of a perfect storm of maluses in this regard.
 

Scottty

Active member
Probably, some of the underlying cases for US policing terribleness are that:
— Very high economic inequality. In pretty much every society that's grossly unequal, you get more and more reliance on policing to keep the underclasses in line by force.
— Gun culture, the military-industrial complex and the resulting worship of the military. The police drink that up and further warp it into some weird warrior-killer mindset [HOLY SHIT].
but if you could choose how you responded I think you'd want to feel good about it


Well, in context he's talking about killing someone in order to save the lives of others, but still...
If you're ever in a position where it's necessary for you to take a human life, you should feel sad about it having to be that way, and maybe some self-doubt later about whether there might have been some other option you failed to think of in time.

Feeling good about doing something would tend to make you want to do more of it...

— A veneer of democracy in that a lot of these positions, including sheriffs, DAs, judges, are elected. I say a veneer because in practice, just about no one actually cares about voting on this scale (democracy gets expensive in terms of effort and time of the citizen), so the vast majority of the time, candidates run unopposed, with the actual effect that they make shows of how tough-on-crime they are while primarily protecting the interests of wealthy.
— Of course, also one of the main defund-the-police point that many social programs are cut and the resulting problems are put in the shoulders of the police.
— Well, racism is not irrelevant, and the shadow of Jim Crow is long and also very messed up, but I think it would be by far too reductive alone.
America is kind of a perfect storm of maluses in this regard.
A better summation of that country's problems than many I've seen. When complex issues get reduced to a single simple cause, that's generally an ideology talking.

On the "gun culture" thing - I think there's more to be said on that. The USA's written constitution rather explicitly states that everyone has the right to be armed and dangerous. But there's a non-trivial polity there, especially (but not only) among what Americans call the Left (ie Democrats) who, to put it bluntly, don't believe that the "right to bear arms" should apply to black people. Or to anyone other than people in uniform, more generally. But especially not to blacks!
They won't say it like that openly, not anymore, but they still think it. And it shows.

Then of course there's crazy nonsense like police being called in to deal with problems that they are not trained for, and which in a saner society would be handled by the people there. Which is how you get stories of small children being arrested by the police for being unruly in school, or a cop shooting someone for having an epileptic fit.
Back when I was at school (in a previous century), the teachers had authority, and the pupils were all scared of the headmaster. The idea of them needing to call in the police for anything would have been considered absurd.

But yeah - training police to think of themselves as "warriors" who should feel good about getting to kill... well, there's your problem.
 

Aaron Fox

SB's Minor Junker Descendant and Hunter of Nazis
Author
On the "gun culture" thing - I think there's more to be said on that. The USA's written constitution rather explicitly states that everyone has the right to be armed and dangerous. But there's a non-trivial polity there, especially (but not only) among what Americans call the Left (ie Democrats) who, to put it bluntly, don't believe that the "right to bear arms" should apply to black people. Or to anyone other than people in uniform, more generally. But especially not to blacks!
They won't say it like that openly, not anymore, but they still think it. And it shows.
That hasn't been a thing for the Dems since the Great Dixiecrat Ejection that started in the late '60s... but whatever floats your boat ideologically...
 

Balerion

Well-known member
That hasn't been a thing for the Dems since the Great Dixiecrat Ejection that started in the late '60s... but whatever floats your boat ideologically...
And yet, Dem run cities have been where these riots took place. You can't have "Police are racist brutes who rampage through ghettoes!" and "Only the police should be allowed guns!" at the same time.
 

Lerticus

Senile Old Coot
Communism
So this week in Atlanta, one Ryshard Brooks, a black man, was drunk and fell asleep in his car at a Wendy's drive-through. The police was called, and he was administered a sobriety test, which he failed, and was put under arrest for DUI; also at this time, a background check turned out that he was wanted for battery of a child. Probably do to possible consequences of the latter, Mr. Brooks decided to grab an taser-gun and fired it at the officers trying to arrest him. At this point, the one of the officers shot Mr. Brooks, who died at the scene. [vid1] [vid2]

Meanwhile, the district attorney lies about the incident charged the officer with murder and ten other crimes, unilaterally against normal procedure. (The DA is an elected position, and an election is coming up, which probably has the most to do with why, although the DA is also under investigation for embezzlement and sexual harassment, which may have contributed to this decision.) If the racial combination was anything other than a white officer and a black suspect, this wouldn't have even made the news. But instead, we Wendy's burned down and a lot of the police force just plain walk out in protest. Although the mayor says things are under control, Atlanta Police radio has long silences and no responses to 911 calls [11Alive]. It seems that Atlanta cops on social media claim much higher walk-out rates than official statements, but who knows.
Actually, the cops lied (big surprise).
Shortly after 10:30 p.m. on Friday night, two Atlanta police officers, Devin Brosnan and Garrett Rolfe — who are both white — responded to a complaint that a man, later identified as 27-year-old Rayshard Brooks, was asleep in his car and obstructing other vehicles in the drive-through lane of a Wendy’s restaurant on University Avenue in southwest Atlanta. According to the Georgia Bureau of Investigations, which is investigating the shooting, the officers gave Brooks a sobriety test, which he allegedly failed. The GBI says that when the officers then went to arrest Brooks, he “resisted and a struggle ensued,” prompting one of the officers to deploy their Taser. Brooks was able to obtain the Taser before trying to run away, according to the GBI, and then “officers pursued Brooks on foot, and during the chase, Brooks turned and pointed the Taser at the officer. The officer fired his weapon, striking Brooks.”
The cop dropped the taser he had in hand and shot Brooks in the back three times. Nowhere in reality was there such a background check for abuse, it was a smear campaign and fabrication by right-wing sources that are know to completely make up their "news".

Also, the Wendy's... act of arson caught on camera. It was a white girl. Once again, the spin is put upon all of the protesters as violent thugs. How predictable.

Best not to just believe the first sources that pop up. The reality is often quite different.
And yet, Dem run cities have been where these riots took place. You can't have "Police are racist brutes who rampage through ghettoes!" and "Only the police should be allowed guns!" at the same time.
Republicans hate unions. Democrats traditionally love unions. Police in the US are operated by some of the most racist and terrible unions, where cops can get away with literally any crimes including murder and be protected from the consequences. Considering that it is almost never crimes against white people, the Republicans are just fine with these unions.

Then again, it is Republicans that are defending the Confederate flag and statues of pro-slavery traitors, so for some strange reason people keep thinking that they are racist and in favor of the police discrimination. Oh, and yesterday Trump retweeted a video (now deleted) of more "very fine people" who support him... who were screaming out "White Power! White Power!" and other racist shit. Man, one really must wonder why people thing the GOP is racist. :unsure:
 

Balerion

Well-known member
And the Democrats were screaming back in the mid 2000s that the security agencies and Mainstream/Corporate media should not be trusted, only now believing that if you don't trust them, you are a RUSSIAN BOT! In the Democrat run cities, they had a generation to clean up policing in their cities, yet they did not. And they also took pains to say "Only bad statues will come down!", before saying that statues of abolitionists coming down is a good thing.
 
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Scottty

Active member
And yet, Dem run cities have been where these riots took place. You can't have "Police are racist brutes who rampage through ghettoes!" and "Only the police should be allowed guns!" at the same time.
Sure you can, if you're a Democrat.
/sarcasm

Also, the Wendy's... act of arson caught on camera. It was a white girl. Once again, the spin is put upon all of the protesters as violent thugs. How predictable.
"One of your group did a bad thing, therefore all of you are guilty of it."
 

Vorpal

Administrator
Administrator
So both UK and US used to have colour-coded slavery and both participated in the African slave trade in particular. But what do we have today?
(US population)/(UK population) = 5.​
But for all police killings since 2009 to about now,
(US cop kills)/(UK cop kills) = 650.​
What's wrong with this picture? There is sometimes an entire year in the UK without police killing anyone at all. Zero is actually statistically possible. Meanwhile, the US never goes below 1200 or so, and most years significantly more than that.

Unless Americans are two whole orders of magnitude more racist than the British, there's something much more deeply wrong with the US police and society than... well, practically anywhere else in the world. Only in very few places, such as Brazil and Venezuela, do police kill at higher rates than the US. ... Why would abolishing the police be a good idea, rather than eliminating the #1 reason that attempts at reforming the police tend to fail: unions? Whoever thought that giving the police, who have an extraordinarily privileged position in being deputies of the state monopoly on force, the right to unconditionally unionise is a good idea in the first place? UK banned police from trade unions, and instead has an alternative organisation to represent their interests, since 1919.

It might be too late reasonable police reform in the US, though. There's only so many decades that you can crap on people before things blow up.

However, what I'd like to know is why there anti-police protests in the UK? Why does UK have Black Lives Matter movement that call for defunding the British police? ... Although perhaps I'm just fatally ignorant of some dark matters in perfidious Albion, I'm strongly suspecting bullshit. It seems to me like an ordinary colour revolution to violently re-align some political factions with the exploitation of angry people; regardless of whether and where their grievances are legitimate, the overall methodology looks pretty much to what it's been in many countries before now.
 

definitelyameatbag

Active member
@Vorpal although we can say that race relations in Britain are objectively speaking not as bad as in the US (fairly low bar, if you ask me), it would be a lie to say that there is no bad here at all. One can see a shift away from absolute commitment to demilitarised police organised on Peelian principles and towards more powerful and unrestricted state security services as the nonwhite and non-Christian population in Britain has rising since the end of World War II, and I don't think it's impossible to imagine an explanation for why the white voter here allowed, or wanted, that shift to happen. I know it could be hard to remember this, but once upon a time you could barely go a day without Brexit being mentioned, and that whole issue had led to an inflammation of white nationalism - racial and religious hate crime spiked immediately after the referendum. Combine these grievances with the fact that much of Britain's populace is furloughed and, like people in the US, not really having anything to occupy their day, and it's not that surprising that the protests about George Flloyd would inspire protests here.
 
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