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Republicans' guide to shootings: downplay white nationalism and blame the left. Also Republicans: Start training them American Taliban.

Lord Kragan

The one and only Lord of Mutton Chops.
Author
Memo reveals a House Republican strategy on shootings: downplay white nationalism, blame left

A document obtained by the Tampa Bay Times and sent by House Republicans provides a framework for how to respond to anticipated questions like, “Why won’t you pass legislation to close the ‘gun show loophole’ in federal law?” and “Why shouldn’t we ban high-capacity magazines?" The answers are boilerplate Republican arguments against tougher gun restrictions.

But it also included this question: “Do you believe white nationalism is driving more mass shootings recently?” The suggested response is to steer the conversation away from white nationalism to an argument that implies both sides are to blame.

“White nationalism and racism are pure evil and cannot be tolerated in any form," the document said. “We also can’t excuse violence from the left such as the El Paso shooter, the recent Colorado shooters, the Congressional baseball shooter, Congresswoman Giffords’ shooter and Antifa."

Revealed: Republican lawmaker aided group training young men for ‘biblical warfare’
The Guardian said said:
The Republican politician Matt Shea connected close allies with a group offering training to young men in “biblical warfare” that includes how to use knives, pistols and rifles, with lessons based in part on the teachings of a Georgia-based neo-Confederate pastor, emails obtained by the Guardian reveal.

Shea, who is an elected Washington state representative, later made videos in support of the group, and appeared alongside them at a gathering at a religious community in remote eastern Washington. He also paid the founder of the group money from his campaign fund in 2018.

*snip*

In his email to Shea, Caughran goes on to list weapons training as part of the event for attendees. The training will “show them how to work better as a team, both in achieving physically demanding tasks and on the battlefield. Those who attend will learn combatives, the use of a knife in defense, close quarters shooting with rifle and pistol and how to work effectively in teams of 2, 3 and 4.”
The first one is quite galling, as the El Paso shooter literally *quotes trump*
 

Yesman

Not-Hostile Robot Caretaker
Author
The first one is quite galling, as the El Paso shooter literally *[WAS AN INSANE LEFTIST BOY WHO PLAYED VIDEO GAMES]*
NO NO NO! Your words are incorrect! Stop believing the corporate overlords! LET ME HALP U


Definitely not gonna nite them in the ass. Definitely not, no sir it won’t/s
 
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Lord Kragan

The one and only Lord of Mutton Chops.
Author
NO NO NO! Your words are incorrect! Stop believing the corporate overlords!


Definitely not gonna nite them in the ass. Definitely not, no sir it won’t/a

Not with their supporter base. Thing is when that supporter base finally dies out...
 

Lerticus

Senile Old Coot
Communism
Would you expect anything else when the Cheeto couldn't go a full sentence on his support of gun legislation before bringing up his immigration platform that is based on demonizing the brown people as being violent criminal monsters?

They immediately jumped onto the potential of video games creating violence. Almost as if this discussion has been attempted before, and that they are unwilling to talk about guns violence being a problem, or that the people committing the violence are so often also blaming their racist dialogue as a motivation. Almost... but we are in the era where we must assume that both parties Republicans only are acting in good faith despite their constant dirty tricks (Democrats are always bad though).
 

Lord Kragan

The one and only Lord of Mutton Chops.
Author
It's interesting though. It's not just a trump thing, or a high level republican thing (as they are close to the Golfer in Chief) but it seems to be spread out pretty deeply, fruit of the republican strategies from the last half a century.
 

Alcibiades

Active member
The first one is quite galling, as the El Paso shooter literally *quotes trump*
He does not quote Trump. He uses a phrase that Trump has also used. Language that goes back decades in the border states.

EDIT: this shit cannot be caused by racism. Racism is 200+ years old. Lone wolves going out and randomly shooting people in large numbers is new. Whatever the necessary reason, racism is not it.

You want to find the cause, look at whatever changed in society starting in the late 1970s.
 
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t-dugong

Purveyor of Silliness, Esq.
He does not quote Trump. He uses a phrase that Trump has also used. Language that goes back decades in the border states.

EDIT: this shit cannot be caused by racism. Racism is 200+ years old. Lone wolves going out and randomly shooting people in large numbers is new. Whatever the necessary reason, racism is not it.

You want to find the cause, look at whatever changed in society starting in the late 1970s.
Seeing as some parts of America killed, seized and destroyed the lives, properties and livelihoods of other parts of itself because of racism since, oh I dunno 200+ years I'd say your argument is bunk.
 

Alcibiades

Active member
Seeing as some parts of America killed, seized and destroyed the lives, properties and livelihoods of other parts of itself because of racism since, oh I dunno 200+ years I'd say your argument is bunk.
Were any of these mass suicide shooters? No they were not. If racism were the independent variable, this would have been going on for centuries (or at least since the invention of modern firearms).

This is a new phenomenon.
 

t-dugong

Purveyor of Silliness, Esq.
Were any of these mass suicide shooters? No they were not. If racism were the independent variable, this would have been going on for centuries (or at least since the invention of modern firearms).

This is a new phenomenon.
If looked at in another way (reasons for killing) it's just a change in the way of racially motivated killing. From the Army (Indian Wars and such) to mob lynchings (the KKK) to single or small group of individuals (mass shootings).

At least, that's how I view it.
 

Alcibiades

Active member
If looked at in another way (reasons for killing) it's just a change in the way of racially motivated killing. From the Army (Indian Wars and such) to mob lynchings (the KKK) to single or small group of individuals (mass shootings).

At least, that's how I view it.
But those are rational. The people who committed violence in the form of firebombing black churches, for instance, had a definite, achievable goal -- to terrorize Southern Blacks and their white allies into stopping the Civil Rights movement. And they did it anonymously. They wanted to live and reap the fruits of their actions.

Somebody who goes out and shoots up a bunch of people with no rational goal is in a different boat -- especially since the likely result of the action is the pepetrator's death.

That's what's different. Since 1980 or so you have had an increasing number of people going on these mass murder/suicide sprees. Sometimes the ostensible motive was racial, sometimes it was something else.

So like I suggested in the other thread -- something must have changed around 1980 and built up speed since then that caused this bizarre behavior.

EDIT: according to wiki, in the 1960s, there were two (2) such events. In the 1950s, zero. Three in the 1970s. There were about a dozen last year alone.
 
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Alcibiades

Active member
So he quotes trump.
Using the same turn of phrase that someone else used is not literally quoting them.

'He said "hello"! He was obviously quoting Bob, who said "hello" yesterday!'

This kind of rhetoric has been common in the border states since I lived there long long ago, mainly focussing on supposed Mexican nationalist plans for annexation. Where did the El Paso shooter get it from? From Trump? From the hundreds of thousands of people in the border areas who feel threatened by migrants? I have no idea, but it is a very long leap from "Trump said x, shooter said X, therefore shooter is somehow inspired by Trump." It could easily be, "people who don't like migrants say X, inspiring both Trump and the shooter."
 

Lord Kragan

The one and only Lord of Mutton Chops.
Author
Premise 1: Trump used a turn of phrase.
Premise 2: Shooter used a turn of phrase.
Conclusion: NOTHING
well, that is deeply flawed.

Premise 1: Trump uses a turn of phrase. Crows it ad nauseam. Sends the army down the southern border and natters how that threat is not imagined, etc.
Premise 2: Shooter uses a turn of phrase that's backed by a ton of actions and rhetoric from the president.
Conclusion: the president's actions breed a climate where shooters with racially charged motives appear, and gives them talking points and ideas.
 

Alcibiades

Active member
well, that is deeply flawed.

Premise 1: Trump uses a turn of phrase. Crows it ad nauseam. Sends the army down the southern border and natters how that threat is not imagined, etc.
Premise 2: Shooter uses a turn of phrase that's backed by a ton of actions and rhetoric from the president.
Conclusion: the president's actions breed a climate where shooters with racially charged motives appear, and gives them talking points and ideas.
Conclusion does not follow from the premises at all.

Again, this kind of rhetoric is common among right-wingers, at least in Southern California when I lived there*. There is no reason whatsoever, other than ideology, to think that he got it from Trump.

I swear to God, partisan politics truly does turn smart people into chuckleheads.

*they think Mexico wants to annex Southern California
 

IndyFront

Yokkiziikzekker
Author
OK, I'm going to ignore the increasingly-silly exchange unfolding above and comment directly on the topic that I think a good first step would be to stop calling them "mass shooters" and "gun violence" and start calling it what it actually legitimately literally and really is; domestic terrorist white nationalists and terrorist attacks...
 

Alcibiades

Active member
*reads a lot of @Alcibiades' posts*

*Read that Vorpal said Alcibiades argue like an old fashioned left winger*

Quick question, @Alcibiades. Are you by any chance an authoritarian leftist?
The people who are relying on received opinion (i.e., authority) as opposed to evidence and reason are not me.

The evidence that the El Paso shooter was somehow enabled by Trump is zero, if that's what you're refering to. I find it pretty likely that he supported Trump, but that is a completely different issue from "he said this thing that sounds like what Trump said, and *insert a lot of undemonstrated premises that I got from an authority*, therefore Trump is to blame!"

This is a) logically ridiculous and b) more importantly, it completely obscures the more important issue of why the hell such things are happening, which is what we should be asking. It's not video games, it's not rock music, it's not racism, and it certainly isn't Trump. And obscuring the real issues is what the center liberals have become experts at, almost as good as the right wing.
 

Horton

Cat
Administrator
Alcibiades is just a devil’s advocate poster. I think his politics are probably closest to the Green Party, not Republicans.
 

t-dugong

Purveyor of Silliness, Esq.
Alcibiades is just a devil’s advocate poster. I think his politics are probably closest to the Green Party, not Republicans.
European Green Party or (actually does American continent have a Green Party and do their policies align with the European ones?)
 

Alcibiades

Active member
Alcibiades is just a devil’s advocate poster. I think his politics are probably closest to the Green Party, not Republicans.
I don't have politics, but when I did, I was a member of the Socialist Party USA (all 1000 or so of us).

What I personally think is that mass shootings/suicides are the result of a society with immense income differences, which at the same time defines your worth as a human being as being a "success", meaning by that having a lot of money. Which creates people who hate themselves and the world. This is just a theory, but it does agree with the observable facts more than Orange Man or video games.

EDIT: remember when I suggested that we should look for something that started around 1980?




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