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SECURITY ORIENTED DEVELOPEMENTS - WORLD

BHHC

Member
So um, SAAB's fighter division on suicide watch, the Czech Republic is going to buy two dozen F-35s and isn't getting anymore Gripens even after the offer of free transfers.

 

Eliar

Well-known member
The Gripen is long in the tooth and at the end of its development cycle.

It may have been a viable peacetime option just to replace your rusted out Migs or something on the cheap but after Russia kicked the post Cold War table in to orbit you need something actually capable of fighting and not be a showpiece 20 years down the line.

Euros got basically 2 options.

Either the F-35 or the Ducky.

Choosing either has its advantages but buying the F-35 implies tacit US support or rather buys US support.

Until they elect the next Trump nutjob that is.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
The Gripen is long in the tooth and at the end of its development cycle.

It may have been a viable peacetime option just to replace your rusted out Migs or something on the cheap but after Russia kicked the post Cold War table in to orbit you need something actually capable of fighting and not be a showpiece 20 years down the line.

Euros got basically 2 options.

Either the F-35 or the Ducky.

Choosing either has its advantages but buying the F-35 implies tacit US support or rather buys US support.

Until they elect the next Trump nutjob that is.

According to a friend of mine who's in the Airforce, South Africa's Gripens are all sitting in a hanger somewhere, with no one qualified to fly or maintain them.

While the old Mirage-3's that the previous government used in Angola and so on... are still in service, and seeing lots of action in the Congo.
Good airplanes.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
So um, SAAB's fighter division on suicide watch, the Czech Republic is going to buy two dozen F-35s and isn't getting anymore Gripens even after the offer of free transfers.

To complete what @Eliar said, the Gripen is in a very bad position now. Its C variant is relatively cheap but utterly inadequate as a new purchase for anyone short of tinpot countries who can still do better buying second-hand planes, while the more performing E version is just as expensive as the competition while still being less effective. Add to this that it doesn't bring any innate quality on its own compared to the competition and that it is massively using US equipment, including its engine, so you get the ITAR mess for a higher cost and lower performance than if you bought, say, a modern F-16V. Then on the political side, you just buy favours with... Sweden.

In this market, Gripen has been utterly ravaged by the arrival of KF-21 which is likely to do everything Gripen does under ITAR but far better. Alternatives for customers worldwide are limited now to Chinese planes which are growing in performance, F-16/35, KF-21 and Rafale. So we're getting back in the Cold War mindset with no room for Gripen's budget IKEA offer when it comes to cost-effectiveness and political strings attached.

The Gripen is long in the tooth and at the end of its development cycle.

It may have been a viable peacetime option just to replace your rusted out Migs or something on the cheap but after Russia kicked the post Cold War table in to orbit you need something actually capable of fighting and not be a showpiece 20 years down the line.

Euros got basically 2 options.

Either the F-35 or the Ducky.

Choosing either has its advantages but buying the F-35 implies tacit US support or rather buys US support.

Until they elect the next Trump nutjob that is.
Or like Greece, you buy both.
 

Eliar

Well-known member
To complete what @Eliar said, the Gripen is in a very bad position now. Its C variant is relatively cheap but utterly inadequate as a new purchase for anyone short of tinpot countries who can still do better buying second-hand planes, while the more performing E version is just as expensive as the competition while still being less effective. Add to this that it doesn't bring any innate quality on its own compared to the competition and that it is massively using US equipment, including its engine, so you get the ITAR mess for a higher cost and lower performance than if you bought, say, a modern F-16V. Then on the political side, you just buy favours with... Sweden.

In this market, Gripen has been utterly ravaged by the arrival of KF-21 which is likely to do everything Gripen does under ITAR but far better. Alternatives for customers worldwide are limited now to Chinese planes which are growing in performance, F-16/35, KF-21 and Rafale. So we're getting back in the Cold War mindset with no room for Gripen's budget IKEA offer when it comes to cost-effectiveness and political strings attached.


Or like Greece, you buy both.
Heh.

We buy Murican for favored neutrality and political capital.

We buy French for allies that will STAY bought once paid for ;p
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Heh.

We buy Murican for favored neutrality and political capital.

We buy French for allies that will STAY bought once paid for ;p
Also to improve your position with the US. Washington tends to be a lot less of a bully when you actually have a Plan B, and the same stuff that'd get you locked from your F-35 if they make all your fleet won't if you have both F-35 and Rafale, since they realize very well the threat isn't as painful for you then.
 

Eliar

Well-known member
Also to improve your position with the US. Washington tends to be a lot less of a bully when you actually have a Plan B, and the same stuff that'd get you locked from your F-35 if they make all your fleet won't if you have both F-35 and Rafale, since they realize very well the threat isn't as painful for you then.

Well having weapons systems from half a dozen countries may not be a sound military option but like I said before political always ALWAYS takes the lead when it comes to military procurement.

So Greece may look like a basket case but it was a concious decision to have American and French planes, German subs and tanks, Italian and French warships, admiting that we would not last long in a protracted war but buying whatever infuence we could from our allies.

And that makes all the difference.

As a counter example I give you Erdo Sultans Turkey that tried to diversify BUT they just had to satisfy their Hur Dur Independent regional power! fetish.

You cant be a member of fucking NATO and seek to purchase major weapon systems from Russia or China or...

Greece is buying influence and political capital.

Turkey was seeking to wave its dick before its master and in the end had it chopped off.

Now they are begging Biden for F-16 upgrades and F-35s while in the same time seek to bribe France by signalling they want to buy Raffale and other weapon systems but that is not how it works.

Currently we are in a firm you are with us or against us stage.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Well having weapons systems from half a dozen countries may not be a sound military option but like I said before political always ALWAYS takes the lead when it comes to military procurement.

So Greece may look like a basket case but it was a concious decision to have American and French planes, German subs and tanks, Italian and French warships, admiting that we would not last long in a protracted war but buying whatever infuence we could from our allies.

And that makes all the difference.

As a counter example I give you Erdo Sultans Turkey that tried to diversify BUT they just had to satisfy their Hur Dur Independent regional power! fetish.

You cant be a member of fucking NATO and seek to purchase major weapon systems from Russia or China or...

Greece is buying influence and political capital.

Turkey was seeking to wave its dick before its master and in the end had it chopped off.

Now they are begging Biden for F-16 upgrades and F-35s while in the same time seek to bribe France by signalling they want to buy Raffale and other weapon systems but that is not how it works.

Currently we are in a firm you are with us or against us stage.

Word is that Turkey has expressed interest in joining the BRICS group.
 

t-dugong

Beach bum, Esq.
Holy fuck, that's quite brazen of China to do exercises with 3 areas intersecting Taiwan's border.

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Scottty

Well-known member
If i heard in the news correctly, she is/was already on her way home....
But please correct me if i´m wrong

Another great victory for the valiant forces of the PLAN, Comrades!
The despicable Western Imperialist has been driven out!

Or something. :)
 

IndyFront

Ξ⌊:Ξ≪⊕ `∧∀⊥∥'⌊: ∀∃∃∀⌊:⊕⌈≪⌊:⊕Γ.
Author
And this is the result of her trip

 

aldw

Active member
China's goal is national rejuvenation and multilateral cooperative development, of which defeating actively hostile political forces and achieving reunification is but part of this process. American-style hegemonism is something that Chinese leadership considers 'a dead end', and my own strategic observations and assessments over 30 years concurs with that.

You just ' they get Taiwan ' like it is not even harder than a land war in Europe.

The PRC's military position vis a vis Taiwan is far more favorable than Russia's position vis a vis Ukraine, even based on just existing standing forces let alone a full mobilization.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
China's goal is national rejuvenation and multilateral cooperative development, of which defeating actively hostile political forces and achieving reunification is but part of this process. American-style hegemonism is something that Chinese leadership considers 'a dead end', and my own strategic observations and assessments over 30 years concurs with that.
Nice bunch of buzzwords. Of course, you'll have to explain this fascinating hypothesis to the Chinese diplomats, because the "young wolves" have apparently missed your memo.
 

Kamakura bakufu

Well-known member
And multilateral cooperation is kind of meaningless when your country can be declared historical terriory of the Huaxia civilization at the drop of hat.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
And multilateral cooperation is kind of meaningless when your country can be declared historical terriory of the Huaxia civilization at the drop of hat.
Let's not forget the multilateral cooperation and national rejuvenation all over South-Eastern Asia when 'Chinese fishing ships' decide to build stuff in other countries' islands only for Chinese warships and soldiers to follow through and steal land from other countries.

Thing is, China can play the imperialist game like we did, but it should take a deep and long look at Russia, then wonder whether it is 100 % certain it won't end up humiliated again at the hands of another Eight-Nation Alliance if it tries some shitte.
 
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