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SECURITY ORIENTED DEVELOPEMENTS - WORLD

aldw

Active member
Let's not forget the multilateral cooperation and national rejuvenation all over South-Eastern Asia when 'Chinese fishing ships' decide to build stuff in other countries' islands only for Chinese warships and soldiers to follow through and steal land from other countries.

Thing is, China can play the imperialist game like we did, but it should take a deep and long look at Russia, then wonder whether it is 100 % certain it won't end up humiliated again at the hands of another Eight-Nation Alliance if it tries some shitte.

Regardless of whether you believe the points or not, the rest of the Global South is far more aligned with both the Chinese and Russian positions than the Western Liberal states, and if another Eight Nation alliance tried to impose their ideology it will end up the zero- nation alliance very fast, that much is certain.
 

PainRack

MechSoldoer
Let's not forget the multilateral cooperation and national rejuvenation all over South-Eastern Asia when 'Chinese fishing ships' decide to build stuff in other countries' islands only for Chinese warships and soldiers to follow through and steal land from other countries.

Thing is, China can play the imperialist game like we did, but it should take a deep and long look at Russia, then wonder whether it is 100 % certain it won't end up humiliated again at the hands of another Eight-Nation Alliance if it tries some shitte.
Those territories has been disputed since the KMT era.

We essentially seeing China initial arguments against colonisers rolled over into the newly independent territories post war, complicated by Imperial Japan occupation of said lands.


Japan surrender led to them ceding said territories over to colonial or local powers(with some weird twists such as American businessman bought island from Japan then finally lost/gave to Phillipines ) but you ignoring that the disputes are a messy result of colonisation.


As for fishing, well, that's where China is in the fault but well, the cod wars happening anew in Asia isn't weird.
And multilateral cooperation is kind of meaningless when your country can be declared historical terriory of the Huaxia civilization at the drop of hat.
You mean territorial disputes that has been present since 1949, when PRC renewed old disputes the KMT had with colonial powers.

Tibet itself was a old KMT wanted to exert influence but PRC was the one which invaded.

The ACTUAL problems is the idea of Race Traitor. Under the old Confucius saying "within the 4 seas, all men are brothers " , Chinese nationalists believe that if you ethnically Chinese, you should support China.

Witness the current

Posts by fervent online nationalists.

This has exerted itself politically before, such as China leaning on Singapore to support it's initiatives.

This is EXTREMELY problematic once you consider the whole racial tensions of SEA and the relatively recent genocide attempts against Chinese in Indonesia 1998.

It's enough that yes, China IS problematic for peace and security in our regions. But for fuck sake, it's NOT what Westerners think and a LOT of their actions, based off erroneous thinking just stirs shit
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Regardless of whether you believe the points or not, the rest of the Global South is far more aligned with both the Chinese and Russian positions than the Western Liberal states, and if another Eight Nation alliance tried to impose their ideology it will end up the zero- nation alliance very fast, that much is certain.
Once again, we also thought that Russia was capable of using its strengths to impose its will i its immediate surroundings, until it was demonstrated to be a paper tiger. China's military has very little, if any, recent military experience, so let's be careful making predictions on how it would perform, and as for the local countries aligning one way or another, well, everyone in the region is starting to see how 'clingy' China can be when being given actual power. Also once again, the young wolves diplomats made it very clear for everyone that China does want a co-prosperity sphere.

Those territories has been disputed since the KMT era.

We essentially seeing China initial arguments against colonisers rolled over into the newly independent territories post war, complicated by Imperial Japan occupation of said lands.


Japan surrender led to them ceding said territories over to colonial or local powers(with some weird twists such as American businessman bought island from Japan then finally lost/gave to Phillipines ) but you ignoring that the disputes are a messy result of colonisation.


As for fishing, well, that's where China is in the fault but well, the cod wars happening anew in Asia isn't weird.
Oh, sure, China might dispute this and make claims, but the fact is that it behaves exactly like the Western colonial nations and sends warships to grab land, which is a fantastic way of demonstrating its attachment to multilateralism, respect of sovereignty and mutual respect with less powerful neighbouring countries.

The same kind of demonstration done by Russia, who also has such long-standing claims. And in any case, you lot are just ancient Gaul territory anyway.
 

PainRack

MechSoldoer
Once again, we also thought that Russia was capable of using its strengths to impose its will i its immediate surroundings, until it was demonstrated to be a paper tiger. China's military has very little, if any, recent military experience, so let's be careful making predictions on how it would perform, and as for the local countries aligning one way or another, well, everyone in the region is starting to see how 'clingy' China can be when being given actual power. Also once again, the young wolves diplomats made it very clear for everyone that China does want a co-prosperity sphere.


Oh, sure, China might dispute this and make claims, but the fact is that it behaves exactly like the Western colonial nations and sends warships to grab land, which is a fantastic way of demonstrating its attachment to multilateralism, respect of sovereignty and mutual respect with less powerful neighbouring countries.

The same kind of demonstration done by Russia, who also has such long-standing claims. And in any case, you lot are just ancient Gaul territory anyway.
China isnt sending warships to grab land.

It's key job right now is to use the military to patrol the area, setup bases so it can demonstrate it's exercising sovereignty in the area.

You know. The very same lack of which caused the ICJ to award the territory to the Phillipines.

That has been it's strategy since the 90s, tied along with the military goal of avoiding containment by the US military.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
China isnt sending warships to grab land.

It's key job right now is to use the military to patrol the area, setup bases so it can demonstrate it's exercising sovereignty in the area.

You know. The very same lack of which caused the ICJ to award the territory to the Phillipines.

That has been it's strategy since the 90s, tied along with the military goal of avoiding containment by the US military.
It's not sending warships to grab land, it's just sending warships to build bases in foreign territory that was resolved to belong to other countries.

Oh, wait, China IS sending warships to grab land.
 

PainRack

MechSoldoer
It's not sending warships to grab land, it's just sending warships to build bases in foreign territory that was resolved to belong to other countries.

Oh, wait, China IS sending warships to grab land.
You have a funny way of saying resolved, for a territorial disputes that lasted a century.


For example.


The Spratyls island dispute came about because Tomas Clona essentially claimed he discovered a bunch of islands which was not on Westerner maps. The RoC disputed it, showing that they had those areas mapped before and it was under their jurdisicition.

Being involved with surviving the purges and a naval gunfire duel, the ROC didn't press said claims and Ferdinand Marcos essentially threatened the brothers with jails and forced them to give up the islands of Freedomland for one peso.


Both China's still lay claim to said territories, claiming that since Spain acquisition of Phillipines as a colony didn't cover said territory, their pre existing claims still is valid.


TLDR: China says since Spain colony didn't include islands, it's still theirs. Phillipines went nah, we "discovered" said islands and I forced the discoverers to give me said land for 1 peso. It's ours now.



As we all know, Colonisation hasn't caused such messy problems about sovereignty and who owns what lands before, with countries jousting over who owns what


Right Sabah, Spain and Phillipines ??the whole US/Phillipines argument was that Spain didn't have the right to cede said territory because US beat Spain and conquered Phillipines. If it wasn't for the communist threat, this would had blown up to be a bigger security issue and even now, Phillipines refuses to utterly concede the territory despite Democratic presidents going this is too idiotic to hold on to now.


But sure. Please do feel free to lecture us on what sovereignty is, members of the colonising empires.
 
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Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
You have a funny way of saying resolved, for a territorial disputes that lasted a century.
If China goes in front of the ICJ and doesn't accept its judgement, it's not my fault.
The Spratyls island dispute came about because Tomas Clona essentially claimed he discovered a bunch of islands which was not on Westerner maps. The RoC disputed it, showing that they had those areas mapped before and it was under their jurdisicition.

Being involved with surviving the purges and a naval gunfire duel, the ROC didn't press said claims and Ferdinand Marcos essentially threatened the brothers with jails and forced them to give up the islands of Freedomland for one peso.


Both China's still lay claim to said territories, claiming that since Spain acquisition of Phillipines as a colony didn't cover said territory, their pre existing claims still is valid.


TLDR: China says since Spain colony didn't include islands, it's still theirs. Phillipines went nah, we "discovered" said islands and I forced the discoverers to give me said land for 1 peso. It's ours now.
Yes, the "ancient Chinese maps", it's a meme by now. So, yeah, China wants to use military power to conquer territory legally recognized to belong to other countries. That's an option, but I'm simply pointing out that Russia tried that too and its military ended up not being as good as it thought once the fighting started. And one thing is sure, colonizing places in SE Asia while screeching with the young wolves "diplomats" isn't a good way to get the neighbours to side with you.
 

PainRack

MechSoldoer
If China goes in front of the ICJ and doesn't accept its judgement, it's not my fault.

Yes, the "ancient Chinese maps", it's a meme by now. So, yeah, China wants to use military power to conquer territory legally recognized to belong to other countries. That's an option, but I'm simply pointing out that Russia tried that too and its military ended up not being as good as it thought once the fighting started. And one thing is sure, colonizing places in SE Asia while screeching with the young wolves "diplomats" isn't a good way to get the neighbours to side with you.
Sure .

As for ancient Chinese maps, you ARE aware again that the RoC has claimed sovereignty over that region of space since 1915 right???

Again. The whole messy nature post colonisation of sovereignty and exploitation of land makes this a MUCH more complicated issue than just China seized lands on ancient maps.

This is the RoC, laying claim to existing Chinese claims on territory which was acknowledged BY the colonial powers of the time such as Britain. (British Parliament technically voted to acknowledge that KMT laid claims to such territories and would not challenge their efforts).

Then two brothers claimed to find new land, which was seized by Phillipines.



The ICJ properly awarded lands to Phillipines based on exercise of sovereignty.


Do you thus see why China is now trying to enforce sovereignty on lands it laid claims to ? Refusing to enact sovereignty is how you concede land claims.

Note that the Phillipines themselves used such "ancient maps", going that Spain did not have the right to concede Sabah to Britain because US beat Spain and conquered Phillipines.

Of course, the whole "ancient map" meme itself is a Western trick to go "we colonised and carved up Asia, ignore what we did " tactic.



Personally, I think the land issue is over blown and China SHOULD take the L but I'm not the one misdiagnosing what China strategy is here .


Accuracy matters, because misperception on what China goals/strategy is leads to bad politics
 
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Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Sure .

As for ancient Chinese maps, you ARE aware again that the RoC has claimed sovereignty over that region of space since 1915 right???

Again. The whole messy nature post colonisation of sovereignty and exploitation of land makes this a MUCH more complicated issue than just China seized lands on ancient maps.

This is the RoC, laying claim to existing Chinese claims on territory which was acknowledged BY the colonial powers of the time such as Britain. (British Parliament technically voted to acknowledge that KMT laid claims to such territories and would not challenge their efforts).

Then two brothers claimed to find new land, which was seized by Phillipines.



The ICJ properly awarded lands to Phillipines based on exercise of sovereignty.


Do you thus see why China is now trying to enforce sovereignty on lands it laid claims to ? Refusing to enact sovereignty is how you concede land claims.

Note that the Phillipines themselves used such "ancient maps", going that Spain did not have the right to concede Sabah to Britain because US beat Spain and conquered Phillipines.

Of course, the whole "ancient map" meme itself is a Western trick to go "we colonised and carved up Asia, ignore what we did " tactic.



Personally, I think the land issue is over blown and China SHOULD take the L but I'm not the one misdiagnosing what China strategy is here .


Accuracy matters, because misperception on what China goals/strategy is leads to bad politics
Yeah, and the matter remains that now, China is sending warships all over SE Asia to do some landgrabs after losing the claims in the court. We can go over it all the ways possible, but that's how it is, so let's not pretend that China is a friendly big brother caring about the feelings and sovereignty of its neighbours. All the reeing about "the West did it before" doesn't change the fact that it's Chinese guns being pointed at the locals right now, just like the whole "Co-Prosperity Sphere" stuff didn't make the Korean women feel better.
 

PainRack

MechSoldoer
Yeah, and the matter remains that now, China is sending warships all over SE Asia to do some landgrabs after losing the claims in the court. We can go over it all the ways possible, but that's how it is, so let's not pretend that China is a friendly big brother caring about the feelings and sovereignty of its neighbours. All the reeing about "the West did it before" doesn't change the fact that it's Chinese guns being pointed at the locals right now, just like the whole "Co-Prosperity Sphere" stuff didn't make the Korean women feel better.
Dude.stop putting words in my mouth.

Nowhere did I say China is a friendly big brother. I expounded on this before in other places . the reasons for claiming the SCS and other territories is much more than China attempts to claim sovereignty and territorial intergrity. It's about economics, resources, competing for scarcity be it oil or more critically, FISH Again, China owns the world largest fishing fleet and has run ramshod over ALL countries attempts to regulate fisheries , we should view this version of the Cod wars as China being bad Britain trying to juggle in on other nations fisheries.

It's easy to see why we should go China territorial claims should be rejected, since the whole reason for the economic exclusion zones was BECAUSE of this exact same reason.



I AM however pointing out to you that your depiction of China strategy OR the reasons are wrong. China isnt seeking to take over land. The deployment of patrols and etc is an attempt to exert sovereignty and that's not trivial either. Wars HAS been fought before based on this jousting over borders.


As for the West has done it before, that's NOT a defence of China either. Rather, it's me trying to explicitly EDUCATE you that your Ancient Chinese Maps is a COLONIALIST excuse to go oh, we carved out this area, it's now OURS to decide what to do.


Note that when the KMT laid claims to some parts of the region, the colonial powers also laid CLAIMS to it too by rights of conquest. The KMT explicit response was territorial intergrity and the reclaimation of Chinese soil


Hence why this issue is treated MUCH more differently in China. It's not just the Century of Humiliation.


And unlike Ukraine, there REALLY isn't a oh, this is another country free and clear. Instead, what we have is rather the very nasty aspects of colonialism carving out new lands to exploit, a resurgent China trying to reclaim its own, hence a territorial dispute it raised 100 years ago when the KMT claimed rulership of China and then subsequently the end of WW2, the surrender of Japan and decolonisation leaving behind some very messy lines that's still causing conflicts today.


You might as well have waved the whole India/Pakistan conflict or the existing wars/conflict in Africa as me trying to say Oh, the West did this too. Nope. I'm pointing out that this is just a continuation of the mess the fucking Europeans left behind. So. Fuck colonialisers.


Besides, if anything, Vietnam is the one that's the true injured party here because her claims were based on pre existing dynastic claims that the French utterly fucked over by conquering them, then NOT claiming said region and leaving it to the Chinese.(then insert Japanese occupation to fuck up sovereignty and continuity further, which strengthened Vietnam claims. )
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Chinese nationalists believe that if you ethnically Chinese, you should support China.

This is getting to the point I was hinting for earlier. Formosa isn't the only bit of land inhabited by ethnic Chinese, but not subject to the rule of the PRC regime. If the ChiComs got their "Reunification", how soon would they start looking at Singapore as well?
 

folti

Well-known member
This is getting to the point I was hinting for earlier. Formosa isn't the only bit of land inhabited by ethnic Chinese, but not subject to the rule of the PRC regime. If the ChiComs got their "Reunification", how soon would they start looking at Singapore as well?
The various Chinese dynasties held the island of Taiwan for a few centuries, while they never held, or even came close to the site of Singapore. So their historical claims are either nonexistent, or very weak.
 

PainRack

MechSoldoer
This is getting to the point I was hinting for earlier. Formosa isn't the only bit of land inhabited by ethnic Chinese, but not subject to the rule of the PRC regime. If the ChiComs got their "Reunification", how soon would they start looking at Singapore as well?
That's not what China thinks. They saying If you not with us , you against us.
.if that's familiar to you, congrats, you remember Bush.


Now . The point of danger is Xi in 5-10 years later. Senility, want of a legacy, changes in power....... That's when Xi might want to go fuck the status quo.
 

t-dugong

Beach bum, Esq.
That's not what China thinks. They saying If you not with us , you against us.
.if that's familiar to you, congrats, you remember Bush.


Now . The point of danger is Xi in 5-10 years later. Senility, want of a legacy, changes in power....... That's when Xi might want to go fuck the status quo.

I miss the days of weak General Secretaries of China.
 

Mr Wumbo

Well-known member
Author
The visit was purely for US domestic consumption, nobody really cared about it and it doesn't advance anything because the whole point was to bait China into making lots of noise (honestly not that hard lmao) so the American public can feel nice about how they're standing up to China.

edit: I mean it have only been a few day and people already stopped caring? There's the military exercise but again the world just doesn't care anymore?
 

PainRack

MechSoldoer
The visit was purely for US domestic consumption, nobody really cared about it and it doesn't advance anything because the whole point was to bait China into making lots of noise (honestly not that hard lmao) so the American public can feel nice about how they're standing up to China.

edit: I mean it have only been a few day and people already stopped caring? There's the military exercise but again the world just doesn't care anymore?
Dude. China kinda cared a LOT.

In response to this, China broke off ties with ASEAN summit and efforts to collaborate against Covid 19 and climate change.
 

Mr Wumbo

Well-known member
Author
Dude. China kinda cared a LOT.

In response to this, China broke off ties with ASEAN summit and efforts to collaborate against Covid 19 and climate change.
I'm talking about other countries besides China and America, and didn't China only broke ties with USA specifically?
 

IndyFront

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