So Why Do People Like Thatcher?

[Muldoon]

Ummm.... it "broke" in that the participants all died. Ten of them. And the warden gave in because of the PR nightmare it caused. They won. She just drew it out, let them die, and handed the Provos a massive PR victory.

The original batch died, the others who tried to follow and prolong it all caved in before Maggie did. As I said you do not negotiate with terrorists. These people were terrorists, unless you are one of those who believes they were freedom fighters or other nonsense like that.
I suspect the warden gave the demands because his prison staff were getting murdered by the provos, though I'll note normal English prisons had similar rules.

 

[The Dark God]

In the end it worked, the British government won because it didn't negotiate wit terrorists, it made the terrorists back down and then talked. As it should be.

Why were the Terroists pissed off?
What was the issue?

 

[EiC]

Because she rekts the coal miners epic style and will rise from the grave to give Trump a free helicopter ride for his socialism.

 

[Muldoon]

Why were the Terroists pissed off?
What was the issue?

Their core demands related to prison life and how they were treated, the list was

1. the right not to wear a prison uniform;
2. the right not to do prison work;
3. the right of free association with other prisoners, and to organise educational and recreational pursuits;
4. the right to one visit, one letter and one parcel per week;
5. full restoration of remission lost through the protest

which in all honesty isn't unreasonable. Some of those things like free association and visits would be restricted as they were terrorists and held under different rules from normal inmates, the same thing exists today with certain Jihadi prisoners. In the end the new warden did allow most of those I think, but he didn't do it until after the protests had folded. The fact that they went ahead and did it in the end does suggest there was a push in the prison administration to loosen up a bit, but naturally the PM couldn't do it during the protest as it would be seen as giving in to terrorists.

In context though it's worth looking at the British prison system in general in the late 70s. The list above wasn't unique to Northern Ireland, all British prisoners wore crappy ex-army uniforms and chronic overcrowding made prison life miserable and probably be considered very inhumane by todays standards. Brutality was common and most prison guards were ex-squaddies who were happy to beat down prisoners if they stepped out of line, often very seriously.

So the guys in NI had a good point, but their protest was happening at a time when there was already a massive reform movement happening in the British prison system in general. The things that were enacted in NI after the protests were also applied across the entire British prison system at about the same time, including building new prisons to reduce crowding and better hiring and discipline practices for guards. In all honesty if they had not bothered they would have got all that stuff anyway from the mainland prison reforms.

 

[Lord Inquisitor Adornable]

Ah yes, when an imprisoned group from an organization that belives violance against your government is the only way to free their people from your tyranny begins a peaceful protest for reasonable humane treatment and you let them die of starvation instead of even speaking with them. Truly the only way of deterring future terrorist attacks.

 

[Muldoon]

Food was provided, they chose not to eat it. Not really much else to do about it unless you force feed them, and even then its a hard thing to do against somebodies will.

Also tyranny? Democracy is how you'd properly describe. Much as the Provos might want you to believe different most of NI wants to be British, the ones fighting against that were a minority trying by violence to overturn democracy. That's your tyranny.

 

[Lord Inquisitor Adornable]

Food was provided, they chose not to eat it.

It wouldn't of been a hunger protest if food wasn't available.

 

[Ravan]

Food was provided, they chose not to eat it. Not really much else to do about it unless you force feed them, and even then its a hard thing to do against somebodies will.

Also tyranny? Democracy is how you'd properly describe. Much as the Provos might want you to believe different most of NI wants to be British, the ones fighting against that were a minority trying by violence to overturn democracy. That's your tyranny.

As soon as the Orange Order is banned from marching, and the DUP forcibly disbanded, and Ian Paisley stripped of his title, and every Paratrooper who opened fire imprisoned or executed, you might have a point.

 

[Lord Inquisitor Adornable]

Also tyranny?

As the IRA and it's supporters would describe it. I make no personal claim as to the morality of any side in this complicated conflict. I'm just outlining how conter productive Thatchers uncompromising policy must of been.

 

[t-dugong]

Ah yes, when an imprisoned group from an organization that belives violance against your government is the only way to free their people from your tyranny begins a peaceful protest for reasonable humane treatment and you let them die of starvation instead of even speaking with them. Truly the only way of deterring future terrorist attacks.

Meh, the Brits can be hardasses like that. Why do you think we won the Malaya Emergency?

 

[Muldoon]

It wouldn't of been a hunger protest if food wasn't available.

Which rather makes the starvation their choice, so when you say the government 'let them die of starvation' I'd say 'let' doesn't really apply. It suggests feeding them was the responsibility of the government and they didn't bother with it.

As soon as the Orange Order is banned from marching, and the DUP forcibly disbanded, and Ian Paisley stripped of his title, and every Paratrooper who opened fire imprisoned or executed, you might have a point.

Executed? Against European law, and I love how people latch onto those Paras and somehow forget the thousands killed by the IRA. The balance is well and truly tipped toward one side in that contest. You are basically talking about overturning rights guaranteed by the European courts, nobody stops nationalist gatherings either if I recall. And Ian Paisley died years ago.

 

[Lord Inquisitor Adornable]

Which rather makes the starvation their choice, so when you say the government 'let them die of starvation' I'd say 'let' doesn't really apply. It suggests feeding them was the responsibility of the government and they didn't bother with it.

When their demands are "we don't want to be literal slaves" I'd say say the government let them die.

 

[Muldoon]

When their demands are "we don't want to be literal slaves" I'd say say the government let them die.

Looking into it prison work wasn't like you get in the US where they make stuff for the economy or sale or whatever, a commercial enterprise. More cleaning up dishes in the prison kitchen and stuff like that, internal things.

 

[Frogbat]

When she died "Ding dong the witch is dead" trended. I think that says a lot.