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The Twilight Age - Tale of Post-Apocalyptic Mars

This is good idea, we can actually patch a major event with an exact time and date into this later one - still, we may also need add Earth years, perhaps in the bracket, for reference (should anybody else be using it)
That would be very awkward, though, since Earth calendar does not match Martian one.
 
Also, come to think about it, would compass work on Mars?

EDIT: Seems it won't work on Mars due to weak magnetic field, meaning that the Nerinese would have to rely on some other ways.
 
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That would be very awkward, though, since Earth calendar does not match Martian one.
We have a period of grow and rebuilding that If I am counting correctly would take about 60 Earth years, which is very long and very short period of time in the same time. Very long, as is, there are states on Earth that were around for shorter period of time, and many things has been build in past 60 years, but in the same time, it feels fairly short for population grow from half a million to 1,7 billion. (and I am going for 1914 numbers as a goal)
I am very bad at math, but something doesn't up there.
World population around 1400 was around 370 million, and it took 400 years to reach said 1,7 million.
We start with half a million, which is much lower than lower estimate for world population at 1 AD with 130 million.
Which means, we need to start with much higher population number past Sorrow, and while it would be in decline for some time, it shouldn't be dramatic (as in very sharp decline).

would compass work on Mars?
I don't know.
Answers range from "no" to "use a very big compass" (big compass practically explains that magnetic field is there, but it is weak, and thus compass somehow needs to be sensitive. Saying no claims there is no magnetic field whatsoever.

Most interesting idea I've would after a short google search is:

A planet like Mars is interesting. It has no detectable global magnetic field, but it does have local crustal magnetic fields. A sufficiently sensitive compass will align to point to the nearest magnetic pole of the nearest local crustal field. If you have a map of all of mar's local crustal fields, you could still use a compass for navigation on mars, but it would be much more complicated and difficult.
 
We have a period of grow and rebuilding that If I am counting correctly would take about 60 Earth years, which is very long and very short period of time in the same time. Very long, as is, there are states on Earth that were around for shorter period of time, and many things has been build in past 60 years, but in the same time, it feels fairly short for population grow from half a million to 1,7 billion. (and I am going for 1914 numbers as a goal)
Any idea what is more sensible timespan, then? Also, is it really necessary to have the same population as 1914?

We start with half a million, which is much lower than lower estimate for world population at 1 AD with 130 million.
Which means, we need to start with much higher population number past Sorrow, and while it would be in decline for some time, it shouldn't be dramatic (as in very sharp decline).
Perhaps instead of sharp decline, stagnant population would work better?

A planet like Mars is interesting. It has no detectable global magnetic field, but it does have local crustal magnetic fields. A sufficiently sensitive compass will align to point to the nearest magnetic pole of the nearest local crustal field. If you have a map of all of mar's local crustal fields, you could still use a compass for navigation on mars, but it would be much more complicated and difficult.
The problem is:

1. We don't have a map of Mars' local crustal fields. - Never mind, I found it. Not sure how useful this is, though, since the fields seem to be spread out wide.

2. What is a sufficiently sensitive compass?
 
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Any idea what is more sensible timespan, then? Also, is it really necessary to have the same population as 1914?
It doesn't have to be as population as in 1914, of course, but I feel it should be at least roughly the same or slightly higher to simulate the WW1 like scale, circumstances and its effect on population.

You need a certain amount of people to maintain a technological civilization where a good degree of specialization is required, and you can't really do so in a very low numbers, like a half a million for the planet, that is straight away hunter gatherer or early farmers level society, and will be there for a long, long time unless it dies out due to extreme living conditions.

You also need certain level of population to be able sustain loses WW1 level inflicted. Only thing to counter this is a shizo-tech, where you practically can't have weapons advanced enough, and you need people fighting with sticks where they have engines and airships. It requires a lot of explanation why it is this way, and interference with electronics won't cut it, we are speaking of literal divine intervention to force warfare on ritualistic levels, and ritualized warfare undermine the tone and scope of the setting ...

So, yes problem boils down to have enough people.

Perhaps instead of sharp decline, stagnant population would work better?
You either need more time in between Sorrow and Great War, and I mean, I lot of time, since we are speaking of moving the planet from hunter gatherer population numbers to modern era.

Or you need to keep up with the time we have, but start with much higher numbers. I wouldn't be afraid to put Mars population level around 500 millions by the time Sorrow happened, or even more.

The problem is:

1. We don't have a map of Mars' local crustal fields.

2. What is a sufficiently sensitive compass?
We obviously need a low tech alternative, but I don't know one, except stars, visible only at night.

Or that messing with planet mechanic due to dimensional shift to the point it does have magnetic field, which is hand-waving.
 
Or that messing with planet mechanic due to dimensional shift to the point it does have magnetic field, which is hand-waving.
How about using the Pandora Rift as a point, then?

We obviously need a low tech alternative, but I don't know one, except stars, visible only at night.
Celestial navigation (that you mentioned) and dead reckoning.

You either need more time in between Sorrow and Great War, and I mean, I lot of time, since we are speaking of moving the planet from hunter gatherer population numbers to modern era.

Or you need to keep up with the time we have, but start with much higher numbers. I wouldn't be afraid to put Mars population level around 500 millions by the time Sorrow happened, or even more.
Let's go with 800 million, then.

You also need certain level of population to be able sustain loses WW1 level inflicted. Only thing to counter this is a shizo-tech, where you practically can't have weapons advanced enough, and you need people fighting with sticks where they have engines and airships. It requires a lot of explanation why it is this way, and interference with electronics won't cut it, we are speaking of literal divine intervention to force warfare on ritualistic levels, and ritualized warfare undermine the tone and scope of the setting ...
Well, the setting IS kinda schizo-techish, but I get what you mean.
 
How about using the Pandora Rift as a point, then?
Good idea. It is natural phenomenon (for given world) and won't go away, and considering it is anomaly it may be magnetic as well. Let's say it took a while before people figured that out, but it could work.

Well, the setting IS kinda schizo-techish, but I get what you mean.
Not to the extreme, or illogical level, as other schizo-tech settings tends to be.
Way I see it, schizo-tech feeling should be fairly mild, and handled in consistent ways due to ... partially paranormal ... phenomenon with consistent effects.

Let's go with 800 million, then.
Which is fair.

Another thing we are dealing with is far future.

And I mean, really far future, with current technologies, terra-forming of Mars can take up to thousands of years, and even then it may not have animals, just plants, and pessimists say it is impossible straight away.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised that current (Earth's) year in the setting is around 2700 or so. Even with some very advanced technologies taken into consideration, I still think that terraforming Mars in like 500 years quite quick, doing it in less may require some really high end Clarketech technologies existing.
 
Which is fair.

Another thing we are dealing with is far future.

And I mean, really far future, with current technologies, terra-forming of Mars can take up to thousands of years, and even then it may not have animals, just plants, and pessimists say it is impossible straight away.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised that current (Earth's) year in the setting is around 2700 or so. Even with some very advanced technologies taken into consideration, I still think that terraforming Mars in like 500 years quite quick, doing it in less may require some really high end Clarketech technologies existing.
Yeah, I didn't put much into pre-Sorrow chronology because of that exact reason. I am just going to assume that pre-Sorrow Humanity had both the technology and infrastructures to accomplish the Terraforming relatively fast, and that they had a capability to modify Humans and other lifeforms to successfully adapt to newly Terraformed Mars.
 
Yeah, I didn't put much into pre-Sorrow chronology because of that exact reason. I am just going to assume that pre-Sorrow Humanity had both the technology and infrastructures to accomplish the Terraforming relatively fast, and that they had a capability to modify Humans and other lifeforms to successfully adapt to newly Terraformed Mars.
So far, no one tried to extrapolate how advanced a pre-Sorrow technology can be, and whether it can be recovered in working condition, but we probably need to address where all of it went. Like, with 800 million people, which is roughly like ... 2.5 of US population ... pre-Sorrow Mars had quite a lot of New York City sized habitation. Where it all went? Sure, technology went into disrepair, was re-purposed, destroyed, recycled etc. but was majority of habitats would be still around. Could be quite a few dead ghost cities too, if population moved off the area past cataclysm.
 
So far, no one tried to extrapolate how advanced a pre-Sorrow technology can be, and whether it can be recovered in working condition, but we probably need to address where all of it went. Like, with 800 million people, which is roughly like ... 2.5 of US population ... pre-Sorrow Mars had quite a lot of New York City sized habitation. Where it all went? Sure, technology went into disrepair, was re-purposed, destroyed, recycled etc. but was majority of habitats would be still around. Could be quite a few dead ghost cities too, if population moved off the area past cataclysm.
As far as I am concerned, those habitats are still there, and still mostly inhabited. It's just that they are heavily dilapidated due to the lack of maintenance, heavily deconstructed due to material scavenging, and had post-Sorrow buildings built over them. A mostly intact building or two would serve as a government center or equally important function. Some might have their names changed.

Ghost cities are an intriguing idea.
 
As far as I am concerned, those habitats are still there, and still mostly inhabited. It's just that they are heavily dilapidated due to the lack of maintenance, heavily deconstructed due to material scavenging, and had post-Sorrow buildings built over them. A mostly intact building or two would serve as a government center or equally important function. Some might have their names changed.

Ghost cities are an intriguing idea.
If it was below ground, it can be easily build over, it it was above ground, it is possible that cities were mostly build over former suburbs, and original centers with tall buildings being mostly abandoned as they are ustable and would collapse anytime soon if they couldn't be maintained for a long time. Some actually did collapse and were already cleared out. Some are still heavily in use, as they were maintenance easy.

I am thinking of re-writing your basic ages / timeline a bit, but I wonder, what important moments we need put in there? Definition the year where magic has been proven etc. or when mages started appearing. Inventions? Political changes?
 
I am thinking of re-writing your basic ages / timeline a bit, but I wonder, what important moments we need put in there? Definition the year where magic has been proven etc. or when mages started appearing. Inventions? Political changes?
We should open it for future updates, but here are the events I think should be on the list, based on current fluff:

1. The first reported case of Magery manifestation.

2. The year when Magic has been proven to exist.

3. Each great powers' foundation.

4. The beginning and the end of the Great War.

5. The Plague's beginning and the end.

Also, I am thinking about making the algal fuel processing a relatively recent redevelopment, a decade or so ago. Would that be okay?
 
Also, I am thinking about making the algal fuel processing a relatively recent redevelopment, a decade or so ago. Would that be okay?
Actually ... I am thinking, how much population you can support with modern infrastructure failing? Because, we still need to explain how there is possible to support a population of roughly 2.5 times of USA without any modern technology. (but keeping the knowledge)

It's population worldwide, but still, it's quite a lot, and needs to stay this way, unless we mess with time periods involved greatly.

This is actually great topic for Spacebattles ... along with what would happen if Mars disappeared etc.

Actually, we can make SB to do the job ... just what questions we need answered? Just put those in the single thread, and wait for them (without actually involving them in world-building itself, since that would only motivate them to win the setting)
 
Actually ... I am thinking, how much population you can support with modern infrastructure failing? Because, we still need to explain how there is possible to support a population of roughly 2.5 times of USA without any modern technology. (but keeping the knowledge)
Not sure if helpful, but GURPS Space does have some information related to this question, although this one is more about Tech Level.

This is actually great topic for Spacebattles ... along with what would happen if Mars disappeared etc.

Actually, we can make SB to do the job ... just what questions we need answered? Just put those in the single thread, and wait for them (without actually involving them in world-building itself, since that would only motivate them to win the setting)
Well, obviously we need an answer on population. I think I can disguise it as the Emberverse scenario. Not sure what we could ask more... do you have any ideas, or what you want to ask?
 
Well, obviously we need an answer on population. I think I can disguise it as the Emberverse scenario. Not sure what we could ask more... do you have any ideas, or what you want to ask?
Problem is, we need to think of the scenario that generally does not follow Ember-verse example - it killed 95% of population in the process, which is outcome largely undesirable for your setting (unless you want greatly increase the time span, possibly even ten times over). While 95% worldwide would work as a reduction from 8 billion to 80 million worldwide, it would probably also take much longer for civilisation to recover, as most survivors would be fairly isolated groups. Also, Emberverse effect is permanent, isn't it? For Nerio, it is pretty much temporary, and by the logic how it works it doesn't necessarily kill things like steam engines or combustion engines. Disaster also starts with already sci-fi setting to begin with.

Which makes me think, some inventions are generally necessary to come early in 90 (respectively 169) years period, allowing fast population growth.
 
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Which makes me think, some inventions are generally necessary to come early in 90 (respectively 169) years period, allowing fast population growth.
I'd propose that the population would remain nearly high as the pre-Sorrow era, with a relatively small decrease (5%, maybe) due to the Sorrow and its aftermaths. For these two reasons:

1. Medical knowledge. While medical technology is going to be toast, knowledge of things like antibiotics, anesthetics, boiling water, and washing hands would survive, as long as there are people remembering and writing them down on paper.

2. Genetic engineering. Considering that the setting is at least several centuries past present, I bet everyone would at least have their genes sanitized for hereditary diseases and probably have more extensive health modifications as well.

Also, I've changed the Dar-es-Salaam's language to Fusha, which is a name for Literary Arabic.
 
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I'd propose that the population would remain nearly high as the pre-Sorrow era, with a relatively small decrease (5%, maybe) due to the Sorrow and its aftermaths. For these two reasons:

1. Medical knowledge. While medical technology is going to be toast, knowledge of things like antibiotics, anesthetics, boiling water, and washing hands would survive, as long as there are people remembering and writing them down on paper.

2. Genetic engineering. Considering that the setting is at least several centuries past present, I bet everyone would at least have their genes sanitized for hereditary diseases and probably have more extensive health modifications as well.
Gene-modded crops can also be a factor
 
Gene-modded crops can also be a factor
Gene-modded crops with extra nutritions, gene-modded pharm animals, gene-modded bacteria for waste disposal and biogas making, the list goes on and on.

On the flipside, gene-modded, smart and tough wardogs going feral won't be a good thing.

Just thinking, what is your view of the technological level of the setting? General overview and specific parts and all that.
 
Gene-modded crops with extra nutritions, gene-modded pharm animals, gene-modded bacteria for waste disposal and biogas making, the list goes on and on.

On the flipside, gene-modded, smart and tough wardogs going feral won't be a good thing.
Basically, at this moment, I am looking at anything that will help to hand wave away a situation where a massive blackout event will kill significant amount of population, because if it does, you will have to eventually rewrite a large part of the setting that has been written to this point ...

Just thinking, what is your view of the technological level of the setting? General overview and specific parts and all that.
It was made to fit an exact theme, which is fine, and could stay this way. I lobbied for a certain themes and technological levels, because they are more unique to see in the setting, and because they make more sense.

We are brainstorming things to make a setting internally consistent, which is not something that is always done.

Only thing we really need to establish what works even without people being aware of magic, spirits and associated limitation in the first place. Such technologies should be implemented as soon as possible within the timeline, as it is logical, and then we can explain how they ran in hard limits for a long years to come.

When I think of it now, we partly get ourselves into it because it was always supposed to take place in the future, and not in alternative universe that evolved naturally in certain niche without being "restricted by knowing" something is technologically possible ...
 
Only thing we really need to establish what works even without people being aware of magic, spirits and associated limitation in the first place. Such technologies should be implemented as soon as possible within the timeline, as it is logical, and then we can explain how they ran in hard limits for a long years to come.
As I noted, much medical knowledge and advancements would survive even after technology died, and not really affected by Magery, so they would be implemented as soon as possible.

Others need established infrastructures and/or a certain level of economic prosperity (and many of them ARE infrastructures), so they would start to reappear, at the minimum, during the Era of Shadow.

Finally, electronics would meet most resistance due to the Magery interference, which would lead to slow and limited reintroductions in the recent era(s).

If Martian Commonwealth is indeed a continuation of pre-Sorrow Martian world government, then they could have a head start in stability, and thus, technological race.

When I think of it now, we partly get ourselves into it because it was always supposed to take place in the future, and not in alternative universe that evolved naturally in certain niche without being "restricted by knowing" something is technologically possible ...
Yeah, I was too lazy to make a map, so I thought putting people on Mars and forcing them to start everything over was a clever idea... That and I read the General series and thought it was cool.

It was made to fit an exact theme, which is fine, and could stay this way. I lobbied for a certain themes and technological levels, because they are more unique to see in the setting, and because they make more sense.
I mean, how advanced do you think the Nerinese as the whole would be? What would be a key technology of each fields? What fields would be advanced to which points?
 
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Yeah, I was too lazy to make a map, so I thought putting people on Mars and forcing them to start everything over was a clever idea... That and I read the General series and thought it was cool.
Well, we spend over 20 pages discussing how it could work, so I think it's fair.

I mean, how advanced do you think the Nerinese as the whole would be? What would be a key technology of each fields? What fields would be advanced to which points?
Anything that can be achieved without electronics.

Electronics, even including spare parts that were eventually used, was irreversibly damaged by persistent black-out scenario. However, it was only a matter of time before they realised that many underlying scientific principles still work, and things can be build and operated, including steam, combustion engines etc. you only need to dumb down entire process to be as manual as possible, without no electronics to guide it. This was an issue, especially when they were far in the future, and were reliant on advanced / hi-tech electronics even more than we are.

Many things fell backward, considering everything needed a manual labour, and dumb down processes in manufacturing.

I feel, WW1 era, early 20th century, works well as indicator of progress, where automation didn't exist, and everything required a lot of manual labour.

Metallurgy probably regressed a lot. They basically ended up manufacturing steel in the way we did back in early 1900

They have idea of chemical or biological processes than we had back in the day, but they are limited by everything working manually. Crude, simple, effective, is probably the motto.

There is even a good explanation why they have 1st world war weapons. It requires industrialisation and it is no cottage industry, but there is no electronic, no advanced processes, mechanic is simple. Actually, they ended up using weapons that they are certain they will go bang once they pull the trigger. There was a long era of peace, and they didn't feel the need to fight any major war, so there wasn't any need to force any advancement.

They don't use solar panels, because they can't really make those, but they certainly know how to make a steam or water turbine. Nuclear power is not worthwhile, because you can't operate it safely considering the general unreliability of ... what is roughly 50's level of electronics which simply isn't around it setting, radioactivity is still deadly, and eventually, it was forgotten

In general, once first and second generation died out, they were mostly ended up with people who were educated in the simplified processes, and they once more had to reinvent things. There was probably a lot of focus in educating future engineers in simplified, start forward, electronic independent processes. I suggest many things are actually know, re-invented early on, population spends a lot of time building an infrastructure non reliant on electronics, but run into hard limit what can be built due to no control over certain mechanics.

Then add Age of Magic somewhere later on, where magic is actually proven to exist, and warding proving to work.

But they again stuck because they can't mass produce mages, so they still spend lot of time with mage independent techbase which isn't very advanced, and something comes to use only after certain area have certain number of mages.

Then they start building civilization around mages which worked, but was cut short by war (and plague)

Now, war is over, they need to deal with many inevitable post-war issues, but I would assume once they figure that out and after few magical-technological breakouts, overall technological levels would experience massive boost.

Main story (stories) would be centred (dated) around this time of uncertainty.
 
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8th of Makara, 0 AS - Horizon Disaster, a year 0 of After-Sorrow era. An failed attempt at teleportation technology creates a rift to another dimension (and unknowingly to other, actually transports entire planet to alternate universe). Immaterial Spirits are released to the world, causing cascade failing effect on almost all advanced technology, destroying electronics.

10th of Makara, 0 AS - Entire planet is engulfed in darkness. Most advanced technology doesn't work.

0 AS - 9 AS Age of Sorrow. Era without any record. World is in chaos, population leaves major cities, dispersing around the globe.

9 AS - 30 AS Age of Reconstruction. Civilisation starts to rebuild, a majority of known scientific principles are still functioning...
 
This was an issue, especially when they were far in the future, and were reliant on advanced / hi-tech electronics even more than we are.
Especially since many future 'books' would also be electronics.

They have idea of chemical or biological processes than we had back in the day, but they are limited by everything working manually. Crude, simple, effective, is probably the motto.
I think chemistry and biology would be definitely better than WW1. For example, they would probably have a Penicillin, the knowledge of DNA, chemical fertilizer, and possibly wider use of plastic, as I intended the algae to be very mouldable and easy to process.

There was a long era of peace, and they didn't feel the need to fight any major war, so there wasn't any need to force any advancement.
Admittedly that was rather a forced peace due to isolation/lack of infrastructures to wage war, but I agree with you.

Nuclear power is not worthwhile, because you can't operate it safely considering the general unreliability of ... what is roughly 50's level of electronics which simply isn't around it setting, radioactivity is still deadly, and eventually, it was forgotten
Remember that short story in Emberverse where someone tried to make a nuclear reactor? It probably went down like that.

Then add Age of Magic somewhere later on, where magic is actually proven to exist, and warding proving to work.

But they again stuck because they can't mass produce mages, so they still spend lot of time with mage independent techbase which isn't very advanced, and something comes to use only after certain area have certain number of mages.

Then they start building civilization around mages which worked, but was cut short by war (and plague)

Now, war is over, they need to deal with many inevitable post-war issues, but I would assume once they figure that out and after few magical-technological breakouts, overall technological levels would experience massive boost.

Main story (stories) would be centred (dated) around this time of uncertainty.
Good idea. In GURPS term, when a magical breakthrough occurs, TL goes up by one level.

9 AS - 30 AS Age of Reconstruction. Civilisation starts to rebuild, a majority of known scientific principles are still functioning...
I still like the idea of calling it the Age of Shadow, since they would stumble a lot during the reconstruction. I originally thought about calling it the Age of Darkness since it would be like trying to find a way in total darkness, but thought it was too bleak in tone.

And I just realized that many Earth holidays are going to face a problem on Mars, especially things like Ramadan.
 
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I think chemistry and biology would be definitely better than WW1. For example, they would probably have a Penicillin, the knowledge of DNA, chemical fertilizer, and possibly wider use of plastic, as I intended the algae to be very mouldable and easy to process.
They would. As a rule of thumb, they would have all the technologies that doesn't require electronics and warding bypass to be available, but everything relies on manual control.

Remember that short story in Emberverse where someone tried to make a nuclear reactor? It probably went down like that.
Emberverse is different, it works conceptually against all technology, which isn't case in this setting.

And I just realized that many Earth holidays are going to face a problem on Mars, especially things like Ramadan.
It was probably worked out somehow, to the point in can the twice a Martian year etc.
It is far in the future, religions would have a lot of time to adapt for a different environment, and simply make up customs that go with it, plus it is far in the future, with many links to previous world severed with a lot of place for societal shifts to occur with beliefs and traditions changing as well

I still like the idea of calling it the Age of Shadow, since they would stumble a lot during the reconstruction. I originally thought about calling it the Age of Darkness since it would be like trying to find a way in total darkness, but thought it was too bleak in tone.
There is time period name generator at Fantasy Name Generator webpage...

As for meaning, they might stumble, but generally, it should (as far as I understand it) be an era when humanity rebuilds the civilisation after the collapse, hence Rebuild or Reconstruction is more descriptive. Age of Shadow feels more like a synonym for Age of Sorrow.
 
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They would. As a rule of thumb, they would have all the technologies that doesn't require electronics and warding bypass to be available, but everything relies on manual control.
You sure? As Typhonis 1 noted:
Computers exist on Mars, however they are not electronic devices. These massive machines run on gears and levers. Consisting of 8000 parts, eleven feet long and weighing 5 tons. These machines allow data to be compiled and computed. Their main use is in census data and Engineering, astronomy, construction, finance, banking and insurance depended on printed tables for calculation. This is it's main use throughout Mars. However it lacks the flexibility that the older pre Sorrow computers have and requires specialized people to run them. Lately a method of punch cards has been developed for data storage and retrieval.
Such thing would be possible, even if it's barely above total manual control.

It was probably worked out somehow, to the point in can the twice a Martian year etc.
It is far in the future, religions would have a lot of time to adapt for a different environment, and simply make up customs that go with it, plus it is far in the future, with many links to previous world severed with a lot of place for societal shifts to occur with beliefs and traditions changing as well
Well, more of a problem for us, but agreed here.
 
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